Okay, I won't argue about when I bought the CD player, I don't have the receipt and don't exactly remember. Looong time ago. The 2006 Memorex CD player doesn't sound different.
E. Power Biggs records on Colombia came out about 1963, when my Mother bought the FM radio and KLEF-FM started. They have rather restricted bass levels. I rather prefer my playing of Passacaglia in C on the Hammond H182 to Biggs on the Flentop, because the bass is more prominent. (His use of the stops is amazing, I have a lot to learn on that). Many mag cartridges of that era could not handle loud bass. I bought a 1961 ADC with my AR turntable, put a new needle in it about 69, it would still skip all over the record on Tommy Boyce & Bobby Hart "I Wonder What she's doing tonight", by ATCO, that had really loud bass. My Grado FTE cartridge bought about 71 handled it fine. So, obviously, Colombia was recording for the market, mostly RCA and Magnavox wood console players at the upper end with 5 g ceramic cartridges. My Colombia CD of Toccata in D doesn't seem to be louder on bass than the LP, but it doesn't have Passacaglia. I've never visited the Flentop organ at Harvard in Boston, so I don't know what it really sounds like.
Glad to hear about Record Services in California. I was always sure there was cheap vinyl with gravel in it, expensive clean vinyl that Colombia, RCA Red Seal, Telefunken, and Mercury Living Presence were using. Hope they have access to the good stuff.
Well engineered CD's should at the usual, sound less loud than the run of the mill pop CD. Then when the bass drum hits, the hair on the back of your neck should raise.
Bells, triangles, cymbals, top octave piano, can be done exceedingly well on vinyl, but one pass with a bad needle or 5g cartridge will wipe it off. The Peter Nero "Warm & Wonderful" LP I am using for amplifier test has a lot of top octave solo Steinway grand parts, which is very hard to reproduce, plus some soft jangly percussion other times. Lovely RCA dynagroove recording, best nickel I ever spent.
That must be what Bjork and Fiona Apple use on their recordings to give certain effects. I have a friend who tried every method possible to clean a Bjork lp that had some dirt related issues only to find out they were added to the recording. They were on the cd as well.
John
I'd also like to add that after reading the posts on this thread that most here are hopelessly out of touch as to what the state of the art is in regard to analog reproduction. It is now possible to achieve quality of sound with vinyl that is on par with master tape. All of the statements made so far about problems associated with playing lps are obsolete. Even in the last five years, things have improved remarkably.
John
John
Most people haven't heard vinyl for so long that they haven't even had a chance to forget what a decent system sounds like 😉
My current player (while I rewire the main one) was actually free - a discarded Dual CS505 with a Nagaoka MP11 boron cartridge - that had a sticky mains switch and some molded phono plugs that had forgotten what an earth connection was. Now fixed and playing Fleetwood Mac's Tango in The Night I was (again) hugely impressed with the natural sound, easy and willing dynamics and fluid treble. This off a deck that is the equivalent of a Ford Escort 😉
Actually it's SY's fault I'm rewiring the main deck - I added some Partridge 977 transformers to my (tube) phono pre for balanced MC input usage. Actually the MP11 MM is just plugged in between the transformer and the tubey part of the preamp - it doesn't seem to mind the connected transformer sitting between the MC and MM inputs - so my phono amp is good for both types of input.
Oh - and I'm still figuring out what part of "24 bits sounds better than 16" and "96kHz sounds better than 44.1" people defending the 16/44.1 CD format do not believe. Logically the CD cannot be both perfect and surpassed by superior digital formats.. ... can it? If yes - it's a logical impossibility, if no - then either the quantisation or sampling rate, or both are too low.
That wouldn't be me. 😀
I love my vinyl setup, but it runs into the physical limits of the medium- Johnson noise of the cartridge, inner groove compression, granularity of even the best vinyl, poor bass separation, tracing distortion... It's amazing that it works as well as it does, but the human ear is pretty forgiving.
Sorry no I am keeping them just in case I will change my mind.
There were some nice deals for VPI HR-X on Audiogon within last few years.
It is still a bit pricey for me but very tempting. Moreover large part of my collection soviet Melodia LPs🙂
name your reference
Nobody is talking upgraded digital with names. What I have heard of MP3 is so bad, I think the whole movement is funny. I read of a better sample rate format on this thread, but no format name was listed. Do I have to get a lobotomy and buy Microsoft Vista, too? Since they obsoleted my Office 97 with their Windows 2000, and required payment to get rid of the conflictor virus with service pack 3, I'm using Ubuntu with no virus's. No digital music either, my computer is pretty stupid and slow, but if good sound were an incentive I could be talked into upgrading at a low price.
Anybody getting to Louisville that wants to hear what I think a good system and source and room is, PM me for an address. No overnight stays or meals, but an hour in the afternoon talking shop would be fun. Bring your reference CD player, while you are at it.
Okay, I get to Dallas sometimes. Name a store that demonstrates something good in a room that is not shaped like an odd bit of warehouse. I'd like to hear a reference Cd player,a modern reference LP turntable system. Lots of smoke and mirrors in the high end audio business, I stand ready to be impressed. I don't want to try to listen while someone is demoing car boom tubes at the other end of the room, either.
Nobody is talking upgraded digital with names. What I have heard of MP3 is so bad, I think the whole movement is funny. I read of a better sample rate format on this thread, but no format name was listed. Do I have to get a lobotomy and buy Microsoft Vista, too? Since they obsoleted my Office 97 with their Windows 2000, and required payment to get rid of the conflictor virus with service pack 3, I'm using Ubuntu with no virus's. No digital music either, my computer is pretty stupid and slow, but if good sound were an incentive I could be talked into upgrading at a low price.
Anybody getting to Louisville that wants to hear what I think a good system and source and room is, PM me for an address. No overnight stays or meals, but an hour in the afternoon talking shop would be fun. Bring your reference CD player, while you are at it.
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Agree, most that i have spoken to thinks 24/44.1 to be as good as going to 96K or put another way, the better signal to noise benefit of 24 bit works out better than the wider bandwidth of 96 K , if one had to choose..
Objectively i cannot see why anyone would not want to just use 24/96 period..
Most of the improvement in pressings are due to lower pressing numbers than just improvement in the mastering...
Hmm... Agree about dragging a nail thru a groove, amazing it actually works.....🙂
My experiences are different, Vinyl seems superior in almost every dimension, well except ease of use and of course S/N .. IMO
We did do an analog vs digital shootout some moons ago and what was surprising was that on one particular speaker system ( apogees) the analog and digital were pretty close, the analog was subjectively better , but not by much ...
When we switched speakers to 3 way point source full range monitors (SM-12) it was very different the analog was way above the digital and on analog it was easily the best sounding package and again easily surpassing the digital ( meridian ) analog was Sota with tangent air bearing arm and clear-audio cartridge...
It would appear from that one off test and other comments by my friends with panel speakers, where they tend to find both digital and analog fairly even in their systems, not so in other setups i have witnessed over the years, the analog is still ahead of the game in my books .... But yet it does tell me system dependency is an issue..
If there is any settling IMO by audiophiles, is for the ease of operation and use of Digital over analog, nothing to do with the sound ......
Better to find someone with a good setup, this will allow you the chance to experience analog more than once , much better than having a one pop sales pressured audition at a dealer ..
.
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I haven't read all the replies to this thread and perhaps someone has already said something like this..
A long time ago (I think it was late 82) I attended a amplifier demonstration given by Mark Levinson. During a break in the listening Mark took questions. One question ask his opinion of the “new” compact dics, and how they compare to vinyl. His response was lengthy, and I don’t remember his exact words but were something like this.
Suppose you hired a carpenter to build you a desk. You tell him you want it to be Oak and of high quality, expense be damned.
The carpenter goes out into the forest and selects a fine mature Oak. He cuts it down and hauls it to his mill, where he goes though the complete process right down to kiln drying the boards. He takes them to his shop and proceeds to craft a desk and hand rubs a finish that you’ll never find at your local office furniture store.
Now, instead, take that newly cut Oak tree and take it to the local mill where they grind it up and pour in some glue and press it out into a board.
Your carpenter takes that particle board and builds your desk, glues on a sheet of formica to the top and sprays the rest of the desk with paint.
Now there you have it. Two desks made of oak. Which one reaches out to you and gives you pleasure?
I know I didn’t tell it like Mark, but I hope you get the idea.
Another way to put it… that old math theory story. Stand at one end of the room and take a step towards the wall on the other side of the room. Now take one half of a step, then half of that, half of that… half of that.. How many steps will it take to reach the other side? How long will it take?
Or how about taking a very high quality picture of the painting of your choice, say the Mona Lisa. Will it be as good as the painting?
No matter how or how often you sample it, a CD is always going to lack something.
Anyway, I love vinyl. But will continue to listen to CD’s until my grand kids grow up.
A long time ago (I think it was late 82) I attended a amplifier demonstration given by Mark Levinson. During a break in the listening Mark took questions. One question ask his opinion of the “new” compact dics, and how they compare to vinyl. His response was lengthy, and I don’t remember his exact words but were something like this.
Suppose you hired a carpenter to build you a desk. You tell him you want it to be Oak and of high quality, expense be damned.
The carpenter goes out into the forest and selects a fine mature Oak. He cuts it down and hauls it to his mill, where he goes though the complete process right down to kiln drying the boards. He takes them to his shop and proceeds to craft a desk and hand rubs a finish that you’ll never find at your local office furniture store.
Now, instead, take that newly cut Oak tree and take it to the local mill where they grind it up and pour in some glue and press it out into a board.
Your carpenter takes that particle board and builds your desk, glues on a sheet of formica to the top and sprays the rest of the desk with paint.
Now there you have it. Two desks made of oak. Which one reaches out to you and gives you pleasure?
I know I didn’t tell it like Mark, but I hope you get the idea.
Another way to put it… that old math theory story. Stand at one end of the room and take a step towards the wall on the other side of the room. Now take one half of a step, then half of that, half of that… half of that.. How many steps will it take to reach the other side? How long will it take?
Or how about taking a very high quality picture of the painting of your choice, say the Mona Lisa. Will it be as good as the painting?
No matter how or how often you sample it, a CD is always going to lack something.
Anyway, I love vinyl. But will continue to listen to CD’s until my grand kids grow up.
It will take exactly twice as long.
Actually when that question was first proposed nearly 2500 years ago, they didn't have accurate digital watches like we do today!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Hello,
That is not the way that I recall the story.
It goes this way. There was a Physicist, Mathematician and an Engineer they went to a strip club. They figured that if they went half the distance to the dance pole then increments of half again the bouncers would not notice their approach. The Physicist and Mathematician soon realized that they would never reach their goal. The Engineer said what the heck, close enough.
The Engineer went on to be the author of the Red Book.
DT
All just for fun!
Now that I've thought about it.. I think got it wrong.
If your back is against one wall and you stepped half the distance to the opposite wall, then half that distance,and half that..half that.. ect ect..
you would never reach the other wall.
Like CD's reaching for the original sound, they will never get there.
Or they didn't have a decent vinyl rig when CD's were introduced, therefore jumped on the "CD's are vastly superior" bandwagon and promptly dumped their LP's and turntable.
jeff
Wow! Maybe it's time you listened to a decent vinyl rig.
It's called music.😉
Neither do I.
Perhaps on the vinyl rig but I can't imagine a bigger waste of money. Mechanical recorders have way too many things that don't behave properly.
G²
I mind the "problem" in digital sound is to recover a lot of small parts & transform in one single part, so engineers let to focus in DA conversion to solve the real big problem.
About sampling or bits: I think the real issue are bits where are really the information.
About sampling or bits: I think the real issue are bits where are really the information.
With a superb ( not by definition most expensive) DAC and self made CD's i finally cannot hear any difference between the CD and LP.
With some (rare) good commercial CDs and simple music (voice guitar drummer) the sound of the CD compares with and sometimes almost equal a good ( not the best) analogue LP (expensive setup , MC and high end pre pre amp and turntable)
very good LPs through an under 1000€ NAD receiver with phono in will always sound worse than the best CD on a high-end dac.
SO for not high end systems It does not make sense to me to go for the hassle of LPs
For high-end dacs (systems) only the best redbook cd can come (very) close ( at its best) to LP's
But having a high end system I still do not opt anymore for analogue since my discovery that with a very good turntable and cartridge through a very good AD unit I cannot hear a difference anymore between analogue and digital.
I use the sparrow ADC with the built in micro clock Black Lion Audio | Black Lion Audio Sparrow ADC
or an alternative is the MUCH more expensive Altmann ADC
record with you computer at 96 Khz (192 is a hype and not really practical) into an ESI Juli@ soundcard with very low jitter and use the (modded) HiFace M2Tech USB/Spdif converter to bring the music of yr cherished LPs to you system's DAC set at 96kHz.
I really wonder if you prefer vinyl still. The sound will not be better than analogue but equals it between 95-100% plus all the nice benefits of remote controlled databases
=================
But I have a different question
Lot if not all, of new Lp's come from digital recordings, So how can the LP sound better than digital mostly recorded at 96Khz?
Or will that "96kHz" LP indeed sound better than a redbook CD?
With some (rare) good commercial CDs and simple music (voice guitar drummer) the sound of the CD compares with and sometimes almost equal a good ( not the best) analogue LP (expensive setup , MC and high end pre pre amp and turntable)
very good LPs through an under 1000€ NAD receiver with phono in will always sound worse than the best CD on a high-end dac.
SO for not high end systems It does not make sense to me to go for the hassle of LPs
For high-end dacs (systems) only the best redbook cd can come (very) close ( at its best) to LP's
But having a high end system I still do not opt anymore for analogue since my discovery that with a very good turntable and cartridge through a very good AD unit I cannot hear a difference anymore between analogue and digital.
I use the sparrow ADC with the built in micro clock Black Lion Audio | Black Lion Audio Sparrow ADC
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
or an alternative is the MUCH more expensive Altmann ADC
record with you computer at 96 Khz (192 is a hype and not really practical) into an ESI Juli@ soundcard with very low jitter and use the (modded) HiFace M2Tech USB/Spdif converter to bring the music of yr cherished LPs to you system's DAC set at 96kHz.
I really wonder if you prefer vinyl still. The sound will not be better than analogue but equals it between 95-100% plus all the nice benefits of remote controlled databases
=================
But I have a different question
Lot if not all, of new Lp's come from digital recordings, So how can the LP sound better than digital mostly recorded at 96Khz?
Or will that "96kHz" LP indeed sound better than a redbook CD?
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One of the problems with 16bit is that reverb tails have an audibly stepped response while with 24bit reverbs tail out much more smoothly.
24bit seems to be ok for replay but any processing (even simple eq functions) should be done at even higher bit rates for them to become transparent.
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