Maybe a strange question for "hotrodding", but since every bit of quality counts, here's my question... I'm using a hypex PS
* I should "twist" or "braid" the AC power cabling between PS and modules, this I know...
* should I twist the speaker connections between modules and speaker terminal?
* should I twist/braid the AC cables between transformer and PS?
Thanks for the info.
* I should "twist" or "braid" the AC power cabling between PS and modules, this I know...
* should I twist the speaker connections between modules and speaker terminal?
* should I twist/braid the AC cables between transformer and PS?
Thanks for the info.
Anyone interested in an Epcos Sikorel group buy in the near future? 😀
Only deanbob is staying on topic 😀
Probably yes to all of the above. 😉
Twist or braid?
Braiding wires reduces capacitance and increases inductance, Useful for high imperance tube circuits where capacitance will effect bandwith and so little current is used the inductance is a nonissue.
Exactally the opposite is true with solid state circuits Enough current is used that cable inductance is importaint and outputs are strong enough that capacitive effects don't matter much. For these circuits twisting is the only way to go.
Roger
Braiding wires reduces capacitance and increases inductance, Useful for high imperance tube circuits where capacitance will effect bandwith and so little current is used the inductance is a nonissue.
Exactally the opposite is true with solid state circuits Enough current is used that cable inductance is importaint and outputs are strong enough that capacitive effects don't matter much. For these circuits twisting is the only way to go.
Roger
That's too funny Roger, I almost posted little awhile ago with the same topic.
You pretty well answered the question I didn't bother to ask.
I figured twisting was the way.
People ought to look into what makes a good twist, there's actually some theory behind it. That is to say a loose spiral doesnt' qualify.
Thanks
You pretty well answered the question I didn't bother to ask.
I figured twisting was the way.
People ought to look into what makes a good twist, there's actually some theory behind it. That is to say a loose spiral doesnt' qualify.
Thanks
How to twist!
I used to stretch out the wires and use a hand drill to do the twisting. This would also twist the individual wires so the whole thing would end up like a wound up spring. The solution was to stretch it after to take the twist out of the individual wires. This proved to be too damaging to the wires so now I do it all by hand. Not real tight, maybe 6 turns/in. for smaller wire and 2 or 3 for larger. With one end allowed to turn the twists will stay in place unless you have wire with real springy insulation. The only solution here is a piece of heatshrink or similar.
Roger
I used to stretch out the wires and use a hand drill to do the twisting. This would also twist the individual wires so the whole thing would end up like a wound up spring. The solution was to stretch it after to take the twist out of the individual wires. This proved to be too damaging to the wires so now I do it all by hand. Not real tight, maybe 6 turns/in. for smaller wire and 2 or 3 for larger. With one end allowed to turn the twists will stay in place unless you have wire with real springy insulation. The only solution here is a piece of heatshrink or similar.
Roger
I later talk to my great sound improvement experience when i turn UCD180 modules so that output coil is not anymore near adjacent module input in my 4-ch amp.
I am now convinced with that experience almost two weeks and it is so strong that i would like to ask directly from Bruno: What can be the reason for very great improvement in sound when i change from that layout
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=720853&stamp=1126376632
to that: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=723316&stamp=1126713109
?
I am now convinced with that experience almost two weeks and it is so strong that i would like to ask directly from Bruno: What can be the reason for very great improvement in sound when i change from that layout
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=720853&stamp=1126376632
to that: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=723316&stamp=1126713109
?
Pasi, I'm sure it's a sound improvement but for your heatflow it's a disaster!
Too bad you don't have space for putting them on the side, electronics facing eachother.
I have my UcD's mounted horizontally like yours were in the beginning, I didn't notice any degradation to before (modules were further apart then)
It's UcD400's, maybe it's different for those...
Too bad you don't have space for putting them on the side, electronics facing eachother.
I have my UcD's mounted horizontally like yours were in the beginning, I didn't notice any degradation to before (modules were further apart then)
It's UcD400's, maybe it's different for those...
Yves Smolders said:
I am sorry about my bad English but i suppose you mean that i mostly imagine "improvement"?
Yes, it can be so! Anyway, i feel that i recognize very well that almost every first experiences of sound "improvement" can be only in my mind. But as i said, when some experience get stonger and stronger over time, then i feel it is_possible_that some real thing was happened. And this "real feel" is very much the case now, otherwise i havent said anything. I never want to say nothing if i really do not_feel_that i have something to say (but i have said so many useles things anyway
) .I suppose that i am not very credulous person (anymore in that age) but of cource i can be wrong. Not the first time if so. Never know
:Edit.
Anyway, it would be very fresh if somebody can enlighten this situation from electrical side: Is there some real electrical things to support my experience or is this totally voodoo?
Pasi,
I didn't mean to say that you are imagining things. I was just pointing out that mounting modules inverted is bad for the heat flow.
So, no, i'm not saying you are imagining!
Also I wanted to point out that I have mounted my UcD400's like your original design, only a bit further apart. I didn't hear the sound degrade - before I had them 30cm apart on a test environment
I didn't mean to say that you are imagining things. I was just pointing out that mounting modules inverted is bad for the heat flow.
So, no, i'm not saying you are imagining!
Also I wanted to point out that I have mounted my UcD400's like your original design, only a bit further apart. I didn't hear the sound degrade - before I had them 30cm apart on a test environment
Yves,
Oh, now i see you said_heathflow_, not HEADflow
Sorry about misunderstanding, it is totally my fault.
And yes, i should made higher case that i can put modules upright position.
I now see very clear that it was mistake to to make slim line case (internal height is 48mm). Very bad thing is also that in that slim line case there is no space to instal tex. polypropylene output cap bottom of the module
Oh, now i see you said_heathflow_, not HEADflow
Sorry about misunderstanding, it is totally my fault.
And yes, i should made higher case that i can put modules upright position.
I now see very clear that it was mistake to to make slim line case (internal height is 48mm). Very bad thing is also that in that slim line case there is no space to instal tex. polypropylene output cap bottom of the module
Oops 😀
Glad we sorted that out! People have gone to war because of misunderstanding eachother!
Don't worry, I'd never attack someone on a personal level in here.
Heat.
Not head 🙂
Glad we sorted that out! People have gone to war because of misunderstanding eachother!
Don't worry, I'd never attack someone on a personal level in here.
Heat.
Not head 🙂Yves,
Dont worry, it really is not first time i totally misunderstand things.
I only wondered why my dictionary did not found word HEADFLOW 😀
I am slow but i am used to (have to) live with that..
Dont worry, it really is not first time i totally misunderstand things.
I only wondered why my dictionary did not found word HEADFLOW 😀
I am slow but i am used to (have to) live with that..
Pasi, cannot you try to get the modules facing upwards but with a bigger distance between modules. Try to shuffle everything around. 4 modules each in a corner or something like that. Your casing is to low anyway so you should try a different solution.
PS don't worry about the english writing, at least you do your best and in the end it works out anyway.
PS don't worry about the english writing, at least you do your best and in the end it works out anyway.
Bert,
Yes, my case is too low to do that permanent solution but i can of cource test it. Anyway this thing is occupied me so that maybe i will make higher case some day. Actually i need only some new aluminium plates for that, which i can cut for free 🙂
Yes, my case is too low to do that permanent solution but i can of cource test it. Anyway this thing is occupied me so that maybe i will make higher case some day. Actually i need only some new aluminium plates for that, which i can cut for free 🙂
Pasi P said:
Pasi P said:
Pasi I'm so touched, how very kind of you to offer us all free aluminum plates 🙂
Why not tell us why you think turning the modules around would make a difference?
I dont' think it did because you weren't complaining about any heterodyning. I assumed before the improvement was the twisted wires which would lower the noise floor as it provides some common mode rejection.
The module is well built, the coil is encased, the daughter card with the comparator is at least a dual layer PCB with ground plane, where most transistors on it operate in a switching state.
The only improvement I see by turning the modules is that of reduced EMI on that daughter card. However I think if EMI was a problem, you'd have certainly heard some whistling, which are the audible difference frequencies between modules.
Also your modules could have broken in more as you've been experimenting so the sound would have slowly been getting better and better anyway. Had you considered this? Or were there already too many hours on them for it to be possible?
Mounting them upside down is not optimal I wouldn't do it myself.
Why don't you stand the modules on their side, so that the coil (hottest part) is on top, and see how that sounds?
Actually if all you're connections are secure you could leave it powered while you twist one of the modules around and see what it sounds like.
I'd like to know what you used for shielding the mains wire with too.
Pasi P said:
Pasi, best would be a 80mm height so you can mount them vertically with the coil directing upwards. But! even than watch they're not too close because they will interact because of straying the 500kc pwm signal on the other board. I've done extensive tests to see what influence the modules have when they're near eachother and the biggest concern, for me, is the disturbing high frequency part/crosstalk. Try to keep them at least 20cm apart.
I'm about to build two 4-channel UCD-400 amplifiers. Now the opinions above about not placing the modules close together are worrying me. It will be difficult to fit 4 modules + the psu in a reasonably sized enclosure if the modules have to be far apart. I guess I will have to look for a "plan B"...
What if I install each module in separate small aluminium enclosures. The enclosure itself would act as a heatsink (enough?) and I could drill holes to allow some airflow around the output coil. An unpainted cast aluminium box large enough to fit a UCD400 costs maybe 11-12 euro. That's not much if it reduces the risk of interference and other trouble. Also these small UCD-boxes inside a larger enclosure could make a rather neat looking installation.
Comments and opinions are appreciated!
What if I install each module in separate small aluminium enclosures. The enclosure itself would act as a heatsink (enough?) and I could drill holes to allow some airflow around the output coil. An unpainted cast aluminium box large enough to fit a UCD400 costs maybe 11-12 euro. That's not much if it reduces the risk of interference and other trouble. Also these small UCD-boxes inside a larger enclosure could make a rather neat looking installation.
Comments and opinions are appreciated!
thomsva said:
I suggest you to ask Hypex on the right placement rules. I asked Hypex and got the right answer.
I personally built a 5 channels UcD180 amps. Each module are close to each other (2cm). NO PROBLEM AT ALL. You should be careful only with temp. Your box should have vent holes above (and preferred under too) the modules.
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