A guestion of size, is bigger really better?
Hi all,
As to size; for an electrolytic this translates directly to its ability to dissipate power, i.e., surface area. This has a direct bearing on the caps ability to handle ripple current. A same size cap with lower ESR can usually handle a bit more but this doesn't translate to 1/2 the ERS = twice the ripple current, actually far less of an improvement is gained. All this may be do to the fact that in an electrolytic ESR goes up over time and the ratings leave some margin for that.
Which brings me to my second and far more important point; electrolytics dry out! When this happens the ESR will increase dramatically. This can lead to very high internal temperatures and cap pieces all over the inside of your unit. You can reform an old cap and if its electrolyte is still inside it will be like new but if it has leaked you won’t know it unless you measure the ESR or at least the ripple voltage when it is put into service. The reformed uf value may be ok or only a little low but the ESR can be 10 or more times too much.
After acquiring an ESR meter I threw away ½ of my old stock because of this. All had measured uf values that were acceptable!
As to size/sound, the newer caps in smaller case sizes typically have lower ESR and sound better but you do have to be careful not to exceed the ripple current ratings. There are some of the older units around that are very good like the Panasonic HF series but they are BIG!!
Roger
Hi all,
As to size; for an electrolytic this translates directly to its ability to dissipate power, i.e., surface area. This has a direct bearing on the caps ability to handle ripple current. A same size cap with lower ESR can usually handle a bit more but this doesn't translate to 1/2 the ERS = twice the ripple current, actually far less of an improvement is gained. All this may be do to the fact that in an electrolytic ESR goes up over time and the ratings leave some margin for that.
Which brings me to my second and far more important point; electrolytics dry out! When this happens the ESR will increase dramatically. This can lead to very high internal temperatures and cap pieces all over the inside of your unit. You can reform an old cap and if its electrolyte is still inside it will be like new but if it has leaked you won’t know it unless you measure the ESR or at least the ripple voltage when it is put into service. The reformed uf value may be ok or only a little low but the ESR can be 10 or more times too much.
After acquiring an ESR meter I threw away ½ of my old stock because of this. All had measured uf values that were acceptable!
As to size/sound, the newer caps in smaller case sizes typically have lower ESR and sound better but you do have to be careful not to exceed the ripple current ratings. There are some of the older units around that are very good like the Panasonic HF series but they are BIG!!
Roger
Ok guys here are the bad news.
I'm a little bit happy (sorry for that 🙄 ) that I'm not the only one who had to go through all this s....
I bought 4 pcs. T-Net caps (for my ZAP 2.2SE) at a German DIY dealer (yes Magura you were not the only one who had big trouble with this guy) and got (guess what) 4 pcs. manufacturing date 51/98! So I started to write to BHC and got in quite a conversation with them. First they told me the same stuff as above to re-form them and so on. They gave me the link to their page for the re-forming procedure and I went through this process. What happened?? Nearly nothing. The ESR and Z values nearly stayed the same and believe me compared to the values on their data sheets they were really c.... The values after re-forming still exceeded 2 times the maximum values guaranteed in their data sheets. So I confronted BHC with this problem again and their only statement was that this would be nothing unexpected at that cap age. So I asked them if they would be willing to exchange them (as good customer service) because my old dealer was not willing at all to exchange them. Their statement was that they would exchange them if I could send them the bill of the capacitors. So I did. They replied that they were sorry but my dealer is unknown to BHC and they could not exchange them before I send them the bill of the capacitors from the distributor who bought the capacitors from BHC. Of course my dealer was unwilling to help in any case and so I never got the information at which distributor he bought these caps. I put them away and used them later in another not so critical project still knowing that I had wasted EUR 150,- for nothing.
I bought new ones at another dealer with manufacturing date 03 and they measured ok.
Sorry for these bad news but considering my experiences it seems not very conclusive for classd4sure to compare these old T-Nets to his other new caps.
Maybe Lars new exactly what he was doing when sending them to classd4sure knowing he could easily prove his standpoint that the T's are c... providing you with this old batch 😉 (just joking). Really Lars just joking I'm still looking forward to get some 700XE in the near future 🙂
Yes and by the way I have a really expensive electronic LCR bridge for about $2000 so my measurements were ok. I also checked back with BHC to verify how to exactly measure the characteristics of the T-Net's. You have to measure them on the output poles to get comparable results with their data sheets.
using_e
I'm a little bit happy (sorry for that 🙄 ) that I'm not the only one who had to go through all this s....
I bought 4 pcs. T-Net caps (for my ZAP 2.2SE) at a German DIY dealer (yes Magura you were not the only one who had big trouble with this guy) and got (guess what) 4 pcs. manufacturing date 51/98! So I started to write to BHC and got in quite a conversation with them. First they told me the same stuff as above to re-form them and so on. They gave me the link to their page for the re-forming procedure and I went through this process. What happened?? Nearly nothing. The ESR and Z values nearly stayed the same and believe me compared to the values on their data sheets they were really c.... The values after re-forming still exceeded 2 times the maximum values guaranteed in their data sheets. So I confronted BHC with this problem again and their only statement was that this would be nothing unexpected at that cap age. So I asked them if they would be willing to exchange them (as good customer service) because my old dealer was not willing at all to exchange them. Their statement was that they would exchange them if I could send them the bill of the capacitors. So I did. They replied that they were sorry but my dealer is unknown to BHC and they could not exchange them before I send them the bill of the capacitors from the distributor who bought the capacitors from BHC. Of course my dealer was unwilling to help in any case and so I never got the information at which distributor he bought these caps. I put them away and used them later in another not so critical project still knowing that I had wasted EUR 150,- for nothing.
I bought new ones at another dealer with manufacturing date 03 and they measured ok.
Sorry for these bad news but considering my experiences it seems not very conclusive for classd4sure to compare these old T-Nets to his other new caps.
Maybe Lars new exactly what he was doing when sending them to classd4sure knowing he could easily prove his standpoint that the T's are c... providing you with this old batch 😉 (just joking). Really Lars just joking I'm still looking forward to get some 700XE in the near future 🙂
Yes and by the way I have a really expensive electronic LCR bridge for about $2000 so my measurements were ok. I also checked back with BHC to verify how to exactly measure the characteristics of the T-Net's. You have to measure them on the output poles to get comparable results with their data sheets.
using_e
Maybe a silly question...............
I've been thinking of buying a UcD180 or 400 module. I wanted to buy the module with the NE5534 . I have some AD8620's with me. Can I replace the chip easily or is the chip covered with epoxy ?
I can't make out from the pictures of the module.
Thanks.
Ashok.
I've been thinking of buying a UcD180 or 400 module. I wanted to buy the module with the NE5534 . I have some AD8620's with me. Can I replace the chip easily or is the chip covered with epoxy ?
I can't make out from the pictures of the module.
Thanks.
Ashok.
Cap issues
Bottom line here is to never accept old caps as new. Sometimes you may not have a choice like buying from an individual. Of course if these caps were any good to begin with this all would have been a moot point. Some 50 year old Western Electric caps still meet all there specs after reforming! Keeping the electrolyte contained is not rocket science and has not been a problem for many years. Of course this is only true with a worthy part that has had some care in its design and manufacture. If a cap is not stressed environmentally it should last for many, many years. I have had some in service for 30 years and still work fine. (An old HP tube HV power supply)
Roger
Bottom line here is to never accept old caps as new. Sometimes you may not have a choice like buying from an individual. Of course if these caps were any good to begin with this all would have been a moot point. Some 50 year old Western Electric caps still meet all there specs after reforming! Keeping the electrolyte contained is not rocket science and has not been a problem for many years. Of course this is only true with a worthy part that has had some care in its design and manufacture. If a cap is not stressed environmentally it should last for many, many years. I have had some in service for 30 years and still work fine. (An old HP tube HV power supply)
Roger
Hi,
Nice post, I rather enjoyed that, using🙂
I don't think Lars needs to make his point that bad, I'd think he'd rather my verdict be they're the best thing ever and then people will order more of them just to see for themselves. I'm going to give my brutally honest opinion either way, and if they explode without me having reformed them, I'm going to say they exploded.
My way of thinking:
If I'm salvaging parts out of an old something, and the caps I find seem worthy of it, but they sat there I don't know how long, I might then consider making the effort of reforming. If I get/buy a new cap, there's no way in hell I'm going to bother, it's too much like painting a new car. Sure there's rust on it, but it's brand new, give me another car!
Why not say the name of this dealer you're not happy with? I think we'd like to know where we can find that kind of service!
Starts with an S? ends with an O?
I think alot of people buy old caps and never know it! For instance, do you think my Cerafines are new? They don't make them anymore.... there's nothing on them at all that would lead to a possible date of manufacture for them.. I think it's a safe bet to say they're no newer than 98 at least. Does anyone know when they stopped making Cerafines?
Credit goes to BHC for at least giving us that much information.
I've checked the data sheet for them just now and have deciphered the code enough to say in fact they're both made in 98, and again the Cerafines are like most other caps, they're anybody's best guess.
I read the year usually comes first, but dont' know exactly as the data sheet doesn't seem to spell it out.
Here's a sample code off one cap:
98 51 29885/1
Both caps share the "98" and the "/1" in common, your guess may be better than mine?
Rule of thumb... never stock up on electrolytics! Reason being? They probably already sat there for years to begin with.
In good engineering terms, doing what I plan on doing with both the Cerafines and T-networks is called (I hope!) "getting away with it".
If they explode so be it, I'll cry, rant and rave, kick the dog twice, clean the mess and get "new" caps, or take up knitting.
My best tip here is the same as always when playing with freshly installed electrolytics of any size, safety glasses go on and stay on until I feel comfortable that nothing will explode. If they can reform in use then I'll like them. I doubt they would have dried out, but I know it can happen. I think that would be obvious enough and wouldn't go undetected in a listening test, something will be very wrong! So my comparison remains valide as far as I'm concerned, I never intended on taking any test equipment to anything anyway, other than my ears.
This will be a good comparison for the average builder who doesnt' have all the equipment because I'll be doing it that way too, and using all the same tools they've got.
Cheers
Chris
Nice post, I rather enjoyed that, using🙂
I don't think Lars needs to make his point that bad, I'd think he'd rather my verdict be they're the best thing ever and then people will order more of them just to see for themselves. I'm going to give my brutally honest opinion either way, and if they explode without me having reformed them, I'm going to say they exploded.
My way of thinking:
If I'm salvaging parts out of an old something, and the caps I find seem worthy of it, but they sat there I don't know how long, I might then consider making the effort of reforming. If I get/buy a new cap, there's no way in hell I'm going to bother, it's too much like painting a new car. Sure there's rust on it, but it's brand new, give me another car!
Why not say the name of this dealer you're not happy with? I think we'd like to know where we can find that kind of service!
Starts with an S? ends with an O?
I think alot of people buy old caps and never know it! For instance, do you think my Cerafines are new? They don't make them anymore.... there's nothing on them at all that would lead to a possible date of manufacture for them.. I think it's a safe bet to say they're no newer than 98 at least. Does anyone know when they stopped making Cerafines?
Credit goes to BHC for at least giving us that much information.
I've checked the data sheet for them just now and have deciphered the code enough to say in fact they're both made in 98, and again the Cerafines are like most other caps, they're anybody's best guess.
I read the year usually comes first, but dont' know exactly as the data sheet doesn't seem to spell it out.
Here's a sample code off one cap:
98 51 29885/1
Both caps share the "98" and the "/1" in common, your guess may be better than mine?
Rule of thumb... never stock up on electrolytics! Reason being? They probably already sat there for years to begin with.
In good engineering terms, doing what I plan on doing with both the Cerafines and T-networks is called (I hope!) "getting away with it".
If they explode so be it, I'll cry, rant and rave, kick the dog twice, clean the mess and get "new" caps, or take up knitting.
My best tip here is the same as always when playing with freshly installed electrolytics of any size, safety glasses go on and stay on until I feel comfortable that nothing will explode. If they can reform in use then I'll like them. I doubt they would have dried out, but I know it can happen. I think that would be obvious enough and wouldn't go undetected in a listening test, something will be very wrong! So my comparison remains valide as far as I'm concerned, I never intended on taking any test equipment to anything anyway, other than my ears.
This will be a good comparison for the average builder who doesnt' have all the equipment because I'll be doing it that way too, and using all the same tools they've got.
Cheers
Chris
Re: Maybe a silly question...............
If they're the same package type/footprint, you'll have no problems, go for it. With the newer modules all other mods are already done so you don't need to worry about changing the zeners or the input resistors or anything, just swap op amps and you're good to go.
ashok said:
If they're the same package type/footprint, you'll have no problems, go for it. With the newer modules all other mods are already done so you don't need to worry about changing the zeners or the input resistors or anything, just swap op amps and you're good to go.
Thanks.
Thanks Chris .
You also said "...With the newer modules all other mods are already done..." .
What are the mods that I can visually check for?
I will be buying them from a dealer and its possible that he may not have the newer version. ....or even know about the new mods.
What should I look for ?
Thanks.
Ashok.
Thanks Chris .
You also said "...With the newer modules all other mods are already done..." .
What are the mods that I can visually check for?
I will be buying them from a dealer and its possible that he may not have the newer version. ....or even know about the new mods.
What should I look for ?
Thanks.
Ashok.
Hi,
If it's from a dealer and they are therefore older versions you're looking at changing the zeners that form the input stage voltage regulators, from 15 to 12V, you need to change the input resistors to 100K from 10K ohms and their bypass caps respectively, all SMT parts.
I am unable to tell you the exact parts and locations...
Other things will be different, but I think that's what you have to worry about to change op amps on it.
Visually you can easily see the value of the SMT input resistors, if you can read it that is.
I'm sure you'll obtain the exact info required from Hypex.
You should be able to ask your dealer what version or revision they are as well. If you think he's lying to you, it will say what version it is on the silkscreen on the bottom of the PCB , and you can take it from there.
Mine say "V4" with the date underneath.
Regards,
Chris
If it's from a dealer and they are therefore older versions you're looking at changing the zeners that form the input stage voltage regulators, from 15 to 12V, you need to change the input resistors to 100K from 10K ohms and their bypass caps respectively, all SMT parts.
I am unable to tell you the exact parts and locations...
Other things will be different, but I think that's what you have to worry about to change op amps on it.
Visually you can easily see the value of the SMT input resistors, if you can read it that is.
I'm sure you'll obtain the exact info required from Hypex.
You should be able to ask your dealer what version or revision they are as well. If you think he's lying to you, it will say what version it is on the silkscreen on the bottom of the PCB , and you can take it from there.
Mine say "V4" with the date underneath.
Regards,
Chris
Thanks again.
Thank you again Chris.
I'll check with Hypex. They will know if the dealer has the V4 units.
If they say yes, I'll contact the dealer .
That info was of great help.
I bought the Amp1B ( and Amp2- unassembled yet ) from Jan at 41Hz.com . The Amp-1B sounds very good. Better than a Creek 5350SE amp. So I though I should get the UcD also.
Cheers,
Ashok.
Thank you again Chris.
I'll check with Hypex. They will know if the dealer has the V4 units.
If they say yes, I'll contact the dealer .
That info was of great help.
I bought the Amp1B ( and Amp2- unassembled yet ) from Jan at 41Hz.com . The Amp-1B sounds very good. Better than a Creek 5350SE amp. So I though I should get the UcD also.
Cheers,
Ashok.
No it was not Schuro. It was the nice guy who sold a nice o-core tranny to Magura 😀
Don't worry he closed his company already.
using_e
Absolutely. When I assembled it I thought it would be a medium level amp. but how wrong I was. Simply amazing.
I have decided to follow Chris footsteps and let see what happend to T-caps without any "re-ageing"..
After some wirefork i will tonight to make "burn in" in garage (for safety reasons)..
Tomorrow we will know if there have been big explosion or only minor with disapointing to sound. I hope none of previous.
After some wirefork i will tonight to make "burn in" in garage (for safety reasons)..
Tomorrow we will know if there have been big explosion or only minor with disapointing to sound. I hope none of previous.
I can also confirm that the 41Hz Amp1 module is surprising good, much better than expected especially for the price. High end even.
Regards,
Dean
Regards,
Dean
Pasi P said:
After you do the garage test and unplug the unit please feel the caps and see if they are hot. If they are do not take it into the house! Let it cool down then retry it. If the caps get hot again remove them and throw them away, they are a safety hazard! If they stay cool they have been successfully reformed or are completely open. If you don’t hear a buzz it should be alright.
Chris, same for you! Keep track of their temperature! They will get real hot before they blow. They should give you enough advance notice. It is extremely rare for caps to blow right away. The one time I do remember is when polarity was reversed, blew within seconds!
Boy do they ever make a mess when they do go, finely shredded paper, shredded aluminum foil and the electrolyte all over everything. Extremely hard to clean up and causes shorts.
Roger
Late night Garage test of T-caps is running.
Ofcource not forgetting some good "installation drinks", as we used to say in Finland.. 😀
Not yet any bad news. Caps are staying cool and correct output voltage.
Final results tomorrow. Newbie like me can only be grateful and wonder how you care to help us question after question. Thank you guys for your great help.
PS.
How long is "dangerous" time that it is likely (or bossible) that caps can explode? Are they "child safety" tomorrow or do i have to always take care that amp is covered with metal?
Ofcource not forgetting some good "installation drinks", as we used to say in Finland.. 😀
Not yet any bad news. Caps are staying cool and correct output voltage.
Final results tomorrow. Newbie like me can only be grateful and wonder how you care to help us question after question. Thank you guys for your great help.
PS.
How long is "dangerous" time that it is likely (or bossible) that caps can explode? Are they "child safety" tomorrow or do i have to always take care that amp is covered with metal?
A question of child safty
Electrolytics can hold a great deal of stored energy. They also can have catastrophic failure, granted this is rare. Still even with a rather mild episode they will vent their built up internal pressure. When they do this they can spray electrolyte a long way. This is not something you would want to get in your eyes or on to anything of value.
Bottom line, be safe! Enclose big electrolytics so if they do fail no one can get hurt. Even just a screen cover is a lot better than nothing. This way if something is dropped on the unit it can’t short anything out. This will also prevent little fingers from getting into the works. In my case I have to make my stuff cat proof. They do like to lay on stuff that gets warm.
Roger
Ps. You are welcome, glad to help out. It is nice to be acknowledged once in a while to know we aren’t wasting our time. The only way we have of knowing if our efforts are useful is if you tell us.
Pasi P said:
Electrolytics can hold a great deal of stored energy. They also can have catastrophic failure, granted this is rare. Still even with a rather mild episode they will vent their built up internal pressure. When they do this they can spray electrolyte a long way. This is not something you would want to get in your eyes or on to anything of value.
Bottom line, be safe! Enclose big electrolytics so if they do fail no one can get hurt. Even just a screen cover is a lot better than nothing. This way if something is dropped on the unit it can’t short anything out. This will also prevent little fingers from getting into the works. In my case I have to make my stuff cat proof. They do like to lay on stuff that gets warm.
Roger
Ps. You are welcome, glad to help out. It is nice to be acknowledged once in a while to know we aren’t wasting our time. The only way we have of knowing if our efforts are useful is if you tell us.
Pasi P said:
Hi,
Usually I put my test circuits inside a little plastic tool box or something and close the lid to contain the miss. I've never exploded one yet though.
I didn't think you would have anything to worry about, don't think I will either, life span ratings are higly conservative.
If you don't limit the current flow to them they'll have either reformed or exploded in very little time, I do check the temp of them after say five or ten minutes..... if they're cool the safety glasses come off.
Regards,
Chris
🙂 😎
Yes! T-nets are now playing. Too old or not, sound improvement is HUGE over previous Rifa PEH200. Almost cannot believe it!
Much more detailed, "sharper" soundstage. Difficult to find words.. everything souds simply better.
It has been little difficult to me believe in "cap sound". Now i do not have to believe any more nothig. Now i know
Ok, sometimes first impression maybe does not say full truth to me. So i continue listening, with pleasure 🙂
Yes! T-nets are now playing. Too old or not, sound improvement is HUGE over previous Rifa PEH200. Almost cannot believe it!
Much more detailed, "sharper" soundstage. Difficult to find words.. everything souds simply better.
It has been little difficult to me believe in "cap sound". Now i do not have to believe any more nothig. Now i know
Ok, sometimes first impression maybe does not say full truth to me. So i continue listening, with pleasure 🙂
Re: A question of child safty
I know what you mean. My cat cost me one ucd180 module. Aongst other things...
I know what you mean. My cat cost me one ucd180 module. Aongst other things...
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