I agree with Allan.
I know that some advertising claims are exaggerated, and we, educated DIYers are inclined to protest (and I think we should). But in the CIAudio case, I think the only claim I found a bit exaggerated was the "oversized filter capacitors". Otherwise I feel they're pretty honest in their claims. And I also feel their prices are reasonable, considering you have to allow a good margin for the dealers.
I spent about US$1,200 building my dual mono amp. And I didn't use any exotic parts. (picture attached)
From their picture on their web site, I can see that they increased the size of the main PS caps in the modules themselves (I guess that's what they mean by "oversized filter capacitors"), and replaced the input caps with what looks like Black Gates N (non-polar). In that sense our mods have an edge because we replace the input caps with either a piece of wire (if our systems permit) or with film caps which in my opinion are better sounding than any electrolytic, including BG's. They claim to have a 2 power supply arrangement. But I'm not sure if that means they have an independent rectification for the input op-amp, or if they're just talking about the regulators in the module.
Has anybody tried to feed the op-amp with a fully independent regulated PS? That could be something interesting to pursue.
I don't think CIAudio replaced the output LC filter caps either. That brought a significant improvement to my modules, but EMI issues could be of concern if you're an audio manufacture.
Anyway, I just thought I'd share my thoughts on that issue.
I know that some advertising claims are exaggerated, and we, educated DIYers are inclined to protest (and I think we should). But in the CIAudio case, I think the only claim I found a bit exaggerated was the "oversized filter capacitors". Otherwise I feel they're pretty honest in their claims. And I also feel their prices are reasonable, considering you have to allow a good margin for the dealers.
I spent about US$1,200 building my dual mono amp. And I didn't use any exotic parts. (picture attached)
From their picture on their web site, I can see that they increased the size of the main PS caps in the modules themselves (I guess that's what they mean by "oversized filter capacitors"), and replaced the input caps with what looks like Black Gates N (non-polar). In that sense our mods have an edge because we replace the input caps with either a piece of wire (if our systems permit) or with film caps which in my opinion are better sounding than any electrolytic, including BG's. They claim to have a 2 power supply arrangement. But I'm not sure if that means they have an independent rectification for the input op-amp, or if they're just talking about the regulators in the module.
Has anybody tried to feed the op-amp with a fully independent regulated PS? That could be something interesting to pursue.
I don't think CIAudio replaced the output LC filter caps either. That brought a significant improvement to my modules, but EMI issues could be of concern if you're an audio manufacture.
Anyway, I just thought I'd share my thoughts on that issue.
Attachments
Julien,
That's one of Ken's cases isn't it? I'm going to order a E100 from him soon (he's got the 100 drilled for UcD as well now!)
No dual mono here, Single 500~800VA and a hypex HG PS, no mods. I don't have the stomach to alter the modules, I'm declared a public enemy when I'm soldering stuff
Julien, btw, on your UcD schematic, bottom-left, there is a circuit with R3, D3, D4, what's that for?
and...
Could the input caps be removed and replaced with 1:1 transformers? Or is better to use higher quality caps?
That's one of Ken's cases isn't it? I'm going to order a E100 from him soon (he's got the 100 drilled for UcD as well now!)
No dual mono here, Single 500~800VA and a hypex HG PS, no mods. I don't have the stomach to alter the modules, I'm declared a public enemy when I'm soldering stuff
Julien, btw, on your UcD schematic, bottom-left, there is a circuit with R3, D3, D4, what's that for?
and...
Could the input caps be removed and replaced with 1:1 transformers? Or is better to use higher quality caps?
Yves Smolders said:Julien,
That's one of Ken's cases isn't it? I'm going to order a E100 from him soon (he's got the 100 drilled for UcD as well now!)
No dual mono here, Single 500~800VA and a hypex HG PS, no mods. I don't have the stomach to alter the modules, I'm declared a public enemy when I'm soldering stuff
Julien, btw, on your UcD schematic, bottom-left, there is a circuit with R3, D3, D4, what's that for?
and...
Could the input caps be removed and replaced with 1:1 transformers? Or is better to use higher quality caps?
Hi Yves.
Yes that's the E130 case from Ken. I wanted a bigger case for better ventilation and for future upgrades and experiments.
I'd get the biggest transformer you can fit on the E100 case. The price difference is usually small. 650-800VA should be good.
The circuit you mention is there to lift the earth ground from the circuit yet providing a safety path to ground in case of an emergency. It is very effective in preventing ground loops.
Now, for the input caps, I'd use good quality polypropylene film caps such as Auricaps.
Hope that helps,
signature edition??
Ive heard some talk about a signature edition being sold in the future. I was just wondering if either the possible signature edition 400 or the not yet released 700 will have any of these modifications discussed in this forum? I'm planning to make a stereo amp soon, but ive got some time bc I still need to finish my speakers before I start on an amp.
Ive heard some talk about a signature edition being sold in the future. I was just wondering if either the possible signature edition 400 or the not yet released 700 will have any of these modifications discussed in this forum? I'm planning to make a stereo amp soon, but ive got some time bc I still need to finish my speakers before I start on an amp.
Signature series? In Gold leaf, neon, or back-lit?
Hi Chris,
The signature is already on every module, always has been, at least in a figurative sense.
A name isnt' at all what I want my money going on, I only ever wanted some value for it, which forced my DIY hand. I don't want to pay for marketing blather, least of all, a name, be it brand or otherwise.
The signature thing seems done to death, and at least to me has become synanomous with marketing BS, regardless of who's name it is, therefore it would no doubt muddy the good name.
If Bruno ever "signed" a module it would have to be because he firmly believes he's achieved perfection, but then he'd have to put his soldering iron down and take up quilting right.
Hypex have been doing a very respectable job as I see it, with sticking to facts, theory, and in helping to educate, just about everyone, rather than BS'ing them as so many others who compete with them resort to.
I think a signature release from them would have to be a backslide in this respect. I'd also like to think Hypex is employing Bruno as head of R&D in order to actually better their product, not so they can simply stamp his name on it and up the price.
You won't see the kind of upgrades in this thread make it in a finished module, these are just little tweaks, and probably exactly what ciaudio has done.
Additionally they've already stated they can't sell an all out "tweaked" module to DIYrz because it would no doubt anger their bigger commercial customers, who can only better the performance themselves by these little tweaks.
I think these commercial guys need to realize we're no longer solely dependant upon the words of (shudder) reviewers and more importantly how sick we are of the BS. They ought to stop crying about it (kind of like the music industry w/ copyright), step up to the plate with some new technology that delivers, or get out of the game.
Some "names" that were selling out there now sell their names with an ICEpower module inside... huh? Time to retire the name perhaps.
How you implement your module is up to you. The better you want it the more it will cost. Like if you have a DC problem from your source, either find a set of film caps you like the sound of or preferably DC couple so you're not listening to coupling caps at all, which means finding a new source, but yeah two caps would be so much cheaper.
If I have a DC free source already the last thing I want to pay for is a set of BG coupling caps on a stock module as I'd only be removing them anyway.
The UCD700 looks like it may be a little less affordable, but it also looks like it's intended for just about everyone in this thread. New features on it seem geared to the serious tweaker, simply by offering a few neat bypass features.
This is probably the best and cheapest way of giving everyone what they want, what more could we ask for?
I see the D-X00 monoblocks have mounted their modules upside down, and high up in what appears to be a sealed case at that.
What's the rule of thumb again? For every ten degrees increase in operating/ambient temp life expectancy is halved? Nice job.
There's enough room in that little box that they should have at least mounted it properly.
I really don't see them employing fully independant supplies, there's only one visible transformer. I do see two wires going to the underside of the PCB off of the PSU, maybe that's for their regulators.
I can tell you that you can take these modules even further than these simple tweaks will bring it, and likely further than anything ciaudio has done with them.
If you really want to go all out, you'll use the best
regulators you can for the front end, and then replace the front end/op amps with a discrete linear amp.. that'll obviously have to outperform the AD op amps you have in there.
Jan-Peter once offered to design the PCB if someone came up with a finished design of a discrete front end.
IVX made a tube front end for his.
To Yves, commenting on your post in another forum.
"virtually no phase shift" in the audio band is all that nuforce claims. What their definition of virtually no is, we don't know.
They certainly didn't make the mistake themselves of claiming less phase shift than anyone else.
If you start hitting marketing forums like that you're going to end up having a wave of fanboys wash over you. If you're really bored it can be fun to aggravate them but, if you go in with good intentions as you did, they'll get you.
They don't really want to hear that they just spent far too much money on a name stamped on a shiny box, and that you're not impressed by them having it.
Anyway, it's alot more fun to hit a car audio forum and tell them that the prized shiny boxes they spent so much on are using last century's technology, and it sounds like it too 🙂
Regards,
Chris
Hi Chris,
The signature is already on every module, always has been, at least in a figurative sense.
A name isnt' at all what I want my money going on, I only ever wanted some value for it, which forced my DIY hand. I don't want to pay for marketing blather, least of all, a name, be it brand or otherwise.
The signature thing seems done to death, and at least to me has become synanomous with marketing BS, regardless of who's name it is, therefore it would no doubt muddy the good name.
If Bruno ever "signed" a module it would have to be because he firmly believes he's achieved perfection, but then he'd have to put his soldering iron down and take up quilting right.
Hypex have been doing a very respectable job as I see it, with sticking to facts, theory, and in helping to educate, just about everyone, rather than BS'ing them as so many others who compete with them resort to.
I think a signature release from them would have to be a backslide in this respect. I'd also like to think Hypex is employing Bruno as head of R&D in order to actually better their product, not so they can simply stamp his name on it and up the price.
You won't see the kind of upgrades in this thread make it in a finished module, these are just little tweaks, and probably exactly what ciaudio has done.
Additionally they've already stated they can't sell an all out "tweaked" module to DIYrz because it would no doubt anger their bigger commercial customers, who can only better the performance themselves by these little tweaks.
I think these commercial guys need to realize we're no longer solely dependant upon the words of (shudder) reviewers and more importantly how sick we are of the BS. They ought to stop crying about it (kind of like the music industry w/ copyright), step up to the plate with some new technology that delivers, or get out of the game.
Some "names" that were selling out there now sell their names with an ICEpower module inside... huh? Time to retire the name perhaps.
How you implement your module is up to you. The better you want it the more it will cost. Like if you have a DC problem from your source, either find a set of film caps you like the sound of or preferably DC couple so you're not listening to coupling caps at all, which means finding a new source, but yeah two caps would be so much cheaper.
If I have a DC free source already the last thing I want to pay for is a set of BG coupling caps on a stock module as I'd only be removing them anyway.
The UCD700 looks like it may be a little less affordable, but it also looks like it's intended for just about everyone in this thread. New features on it seem geared to the serious tweaker, simply by offering a few neat bypass features.
This is probably the best and cheapest way of giving everyone what they want, what more could we ask for?
I see the D-X00 monoblocks have mounted their modules upside down, and high up in what appears to be a sealed case at that.
What's the rule of thumb again? For every ten degrees increase in operating/ambient temp life expectancy is halved? Nice job.
There's enough room in that little box that they should have at least mounted it properly.
I really don't see them employing fully independant supplies, there's only one visible transformer. I do see two wires going to the underside of the PCB off of the PSU, maybe that's for their regulators.
I can tell you that you can take these modules even further than these simple tweaks will bring it, and likely further than anything ciaudio has done with them.
If you really want to go all out, you'll use the best
regulators you can for the front end, and then replace the front end/op amps with a discrete linear amp.. that'll obviously have to outperform the AD op amps you have in there.
Jan-Peter once offered to design the PCB if someone came up with a finished design of a discrete front end.
IVX made a tube front end for his.
To Yves, commenting on your post in another forum.
"virtually no phase shift" in the audio band is all that nuforce claims. What their definition of virtually no is, we don't know.
They certainly didn't make the mistake themselves of claiming less phase shift than anyone else.
If you start hitting marketing forums like that you're going to end up having a wave of fanboys wash over you. If you're really bored it can be fun to aggravate them but, if you go in with good intentions as you did, they'll get you.
They don't really want to hear that they just spent far too much money on a name stamped on a shiny box, and that you're not impressed by them having it.
Anyway, it's alot more fun to hit a car audio forum and tell them that the prized shiny boxes they spent so much on are using last century's technology, and it sounds like it too 🙂
Regards,
Chris
ClassD4sure:
I'll just stop going to these formums to spread "the word" - it doesn't get accepted anyway, everyone has their own thoughts and won't try anything new (I tried UcD on good luck as a party amp, look now, it's in my main system)
About mounting.
I see a lot of ppl mounting the modules on "the side". (Blue T cooler down)
I'm mouning them with the PCB facing down on a large heatsink. Would mounting them with the T cooler down be more efficient?
About commercial amps:
(almost) all companies in the highend business seem to take quite large markups on their stuff... Multiples of the actual cost. If the market were like the PC market (and the cheap audio market is) - 5% to 10% would be all they take.
Look, i'm an amateur, I'm reading here for a few months: I could take Ken's cases, hypex modules, PS and transformer, a softstart and add a few wires, slap a fancy name on it, and add a healthy 15% margin on it, and still be very competitive with a quality product that sells itself on sound quality and outperforms quite some nice amps out there.
Most don't do that though, they add some secret mumbo-jumbo and put a 100% margin on it. I'm sure my "standard" solution will be much better price-quality wise.
I'm not even talking about doing the PS myself, or the case, or the softstart, which would even be better for the price....
hey I could do a "signature" in a *silver* case with *silver* wires and a blue led instead of a red one. Even add some new caps. Should I quadruple the price?
No offense to truly quality builders like Hypex, who give us modules at nice prices (I *truly* don't care what their margin is) and are fully "open" to the DIY world about qualities and even help us improve their own stuff. Indeed, the UcD700 with all the functions to bypass caps, use your own power supply for the opamps etc. is a beautiful example of marketing based on what the user wants.
*end of rant*
I'll just stop going to these formums to spread "the word" - it doesn't get accepted anyway, everyone has their own thoughts and won't try anything new (I tried UcD on good luck as a party amp, look now, it's in my main system)
About mounting.
I see a lot of ppl mounting the modules on "the side". (Blue T cooler down)
I'm mouning them with the PCB facing down on a large heatsink. Would mounting them with the T cooler down be more efficient?
About commercial amps:
(almost) all companies in the highend business seem to take quite large markups on their stuff... Multiples of the actual cost. If the market were like the PC market (and the cheap audio market is) - 5% to 10% would be all they take.
Look, i'm an amateur, I'm reading here for a few months: I could take Ken's cases, hypex modules, PS and transformer, a softstart and add a few wires, slap a fancy name on it, and add a healthy 15% margin on it, and still be very competitive with a quality product that sells itself on sound quality and outperforms quite some nice amps out there.
Most don't do that though, they add some secret mumbo-jumbo and put a 100% margin on it. I'm sure my "standard" solution will be much better price-quality wise.
I'm not even talking about doing the PS myself, or the case, or the softstart, which would even be better for the price....
hey I could do a "signature" in a *silver* case with *silver* wires and a blue led instead of a red one. Even add some new caps. Should I quadruple the price?
No offense to truly quality builders like Hypex, who give us modules at nice prices (I *truly* don't care what their margin is) and are fully "open" to the DIY world about qualities and even help us improve their own stuff. Indeed, the UcD700 with all the functions to bypass caps, use your own power supply for the opamps etc. is a beautiful example of marketing based on what the user wants.
*end of rant*
rant continued 🙂
I semi agree with you but then again, it has to be worth they're while, they have overhead and time invested in it.
You have a few friends who want amps right now, will you build them all one for just a case of beer or a pat on the back? Think about how much of your time it would actually take you from start to finish. Count the hours from the time you open a browser and start searching for a decent set of caps and rectifiers etc... you've already spent a few months here researching shouldnt' that be worth something or is your time worth nothing to your friends? ..and hey, everyone is your friend when they want something.
Most module based amps I've seen are at a very reasonably cost, as a DIY'r you know you could do it for yourself cheaper, but when you're thinking from that perspective you're not billing yourself for your hours, or anyone else's. No one wants to or should work for free, people sure it expect it of them though.
You've got it narrowed right down to "ken's case and this power supply" but you've already spent as you just said, a few months researching this. "a soft start circuit" sounds pretty general though and it sounds like it would require more research on your part because your friends cant' help ya there. That's just to select an existing one that will hopefully do the trick.
If you wanted to design your own, your time invested goes up exponentially, and you'll have the ugly stages of the design process to endure, each one costing you more money that your friends won't be willing to pay for.
You'll then be upping your price to hopefully pay it off in a respectable and realistic amount so you can start seeing a return from it this century.
And if you want to be commercial you can't sell it as your product if you just do like on American C(s)hopper and buy all your parts from everyone else, you "have" to get your own "signature" in there somehow, but this should _never_ mean mumbo jumbo (like a theme based amp, forgive me if you don't know the show). A little quality work would do, like placing the module the right way for instance.
You mentioned things like PC's and only being a 5% 10% mark up? New video cards are over 800$, three years from now I'll get that same card for 10% of that, after it's long obsolete and they've sold tens of thousands of them for the 800$. The same is true with almost everything in them.
Everytime I see a computer in a store that looks like a decent price, a quick inspection shows you two year old hardware that was the cheapest it could possibly be two years prior when they mass produced it, and it always runs like it too.
There's also only one or two places I've ever heard of that sell a computer that's properly formatted and not fully crapped up from the very beginning, so most people are typically in a month later paying to have it formatted and they just recopy the same garbage image over if you're lucky, or worse they'll do a system restore to get even more money out of you because you're sure to be back the next day.
The job then falls to guys like me who spend 20X the time on it and do the job right, from scratch, and the results always show, but can't charge 20X more for it..... hell no the computer isn't worth half that, and they expect you to do it for next to nothing because they just had it formatted for 130$ and that's your problem? BTW how come it took the store only two hours and you need it for two days?
Alien computers sell their systems with a fully optimized install of the OS, as it should be (that's what takes two days). They also don't use cheap stuff that's been cheaply mass produced a few years prior, and you're not going to get a computer from them for less than three grand USD.
You could build your own exactly like it for maybe 2/3 the cost of it, if you researched each component to get the best possible deals. They still get all those parts at a small fraction of what your cost would be and their markup is huge.
About the T-Sink, it's been discussed from time to time, that's probably why you see so many mounting it the right way.
If you believe that 10 degree rule of thumb I mentioned you won't want the hottest part of the module (inductor) heating up the rest of it. So place it accordingly, and that's never going to be upside down (PCB horizontal and facing up=wrong).
An upside down T is good, with a vertical board that is. I take it that's what you meant when you said blue t cooler down?
Sideways with the inductor at the top seems best. You've got some options and it's not entirely critical either but I'd never put it upside down myself because it seems like the worst possible way, you're heating up the entire board.
It's just a "be kind to your module" thing.... of course no commercial builder in his right mind would want a product with a twenty year life span. Ideally with a one year warranty it will last two full years, that's 11 months more than the cheap stuff, and they won't feel so cheated when it does start to act up that they can't be convinced to buy a new one when they take the old one in for repair.
As a DIY'r you might want to flip yours around though 🙂
Regards,
Chris
I semi agree with you but then again, it has to be worth they're while, they have overhead and time invested in it.
You have a few friends who want amps right now, will you build them all one for just a case of beer or a pat on the back? Think about how much of your time it would actually take you from start to finish. Count the hours from the time you open a browser and start searching for a decent set of caps and rectifiers etc... you've already spent a few months here researching shouldnt' that be worth something or is your time worth nothing to your friends? ..and hey, everyone is your friend when they want something.
Most module based amps I've seen are at a very reasonably cost, as a DIY'r you know you could do it for yourself cheaper, but when you're thinking from that perspective you're not billing yourself for your hours, or anyone else's. No one wants to or should work for free, people sure it expect it of them though.
You've got it narrowed right down to "ken's case and this power supply" but you've already spent as you just said, a few months researching this. "a soft start circuit" sounds pretty general though and it sounds like it would require more research on your part because your friends cant' help ya there. That's just to select an existing one that will hopefully do the trick.
If you wanted to design your own, your time invested goes up exponentially, and you'll have the ugly stages of the design process to endure, each one costing you more money that your friends won't be willing to pay for.
You'll then be upping your price to hopefully pay it off in a respectable and realistic amount so you can start seeing a return from it this century.
And if you want to be commercial you can't sell it as your product if you just do like on American C(s)hopper and buy all your parts from everyone else, you "have" to get your own "signature" in there somehow, but this should _never_ mean mumbo jumbo (like a theme based amp, forgive me if you don't know the show). A little quality work would do, like placing the module the right way for instance.
You mentioned things like PC's and only being a 5% 10% mark up? New video cards are over 800$, three years from now I'll get that same card for 10% of that, after it's long obsolete and they've sold tens of thousands of them for the 800$. The same is true with almost everything in them.
Everytime I see a computer in a store that looks like a decent price, a quick inspection shows you two year old hardware that was the cheapest it could possibly be two years prior when they mass produced it, and it always runs like it too.
There's also only one or two places I've ever heard of that sell a computer that's properly formatted and not fully crapped up from the very beginning, so most people are typically in a month later paying to have it formatted and they just recopy the same garbage image over if you're lucky, or worse they'll do a system restore to get even more money out of you because you're sure to be back the next day.
The job then falls to guys like me who spend 20X the time on it and do the job right, from scratch, and the results always show, but can't charge 20X more for it..... hell no the computer isn't worth half that, and they expect you to do it for next to nothing because they just had it formatted for 130$ and that's your problem? BTW how come it took the store only two hours and you need it for two days?
Alien computers sell their systems with a fully optimized install of the OS, as it should be (that's what takes two days). They also don't use cheap stuff that's been cheaply mass produced a few years prior, and you're not going to get a computer from them for less than three grand USD.
You could build your own exactly like it for maybe 2/3 the cost of it, if you researched each component to get the best possible deals. They still get all those parts at a small fraction of what your cost would be and their markup is huge.
About the T-Sink, it's been discussed from time to time, that's probably why you see so many mounting it the right way.
If you believe that 10 degree rule of thumb I mentioned you won't want the hottest part of the module (inductor) heating up the rest of it. So place it accordingly, and that's never going to be upside down (PCB horizontal and facing up=wrong).
An upside down T is good, with a vertical board that is. I take it that's what you meant when you said blue t cooler down?
Sideways with the inductor at the top seems best. You've got some options and it's not entirely critical either but I'd never put it upside down myself because it seems like the worst possible way, you're heating up the entire board.
It's just a "be kind to your module" thing.... of course no commercial builder in his right mind would want a product with a twenty year life span. Ideally with a one year warranty it will last two full years, that's 11 months more than the cheap stuff, and they won't feel so cheated when it does start to act up that they can't be convinced to buy a new one when they take the old one in for repair.
As a DIY'r you might want to flip yours around though 🙂
Regards,
Chris
Costs
Chris,
Your only error is in being too conservative. The R/D costs of a new product may have to be amortized over just a few 100’s of units. This cost will be substantial for a decent product and this will add a lot to the bottom line. Also forget about economy of scale as there is none. The fact that most high end products are labor intensive means the overhead burden is substantial as well, for the same reasons, just less product going out the door to pay for it.
Most high end companies that I know of try to give good value as this is necessary to be competitive. That is not saying there are no snake oil sales companies out there, unfortunately there are.
Roger
Chris,
Your only error is in being too conservative. The R/D costs of a new product may have to be amortized over just a few 100’s of units. This cost will be substantial for a decent product and this will add a lot to the bottom line. Also forget about economy of scale as there is none. The fact that most high end products are labor intensive means the overhead burden is substantial as well, for the same reasons, just less product going out the door to pay for it.
Most high end companies that I know of try to give good value as this is necessary to be competitive. That is not saying there are no snake oil sales companies out there, unfortunately there are.
Roger
ClassD,
You're right if you look at it commercially, the time spent to find out how to make the amp etc. etc., it indeed took me hours.
However, I didn't research commercially: these hours weren't lost for me, as I now have a nice working amp. Nobody had to pay me for this time, it was for myself.
So looking at that, I could build some amps as a "side-job", and only have to look at material price and maybe the time needed to assemble them. I'd have some money on the side that way, even could do it officially. 😀
About the module placement: Of course with the PCB horizontally, I mean horizontally with the T-sink facing up, that's how I have them now.
The thing that seems to heat the most this way is the transistor at the bottom of the T "leg". One module seems to run hotter than the other.
With the sink I use it seems to be allright though, I can touch it just after turning off the amp without problems.
Let me include the photo and see what you think. (don't mind the other components, it's mounted in an old Akai 80's vintage amp, it has a nice big transformer and I can use it again later 😀 )
As for "upside down T", I was thinking of screwing the modules to an aluminum base plate , meaning that the part of the T were the bolts normally go is pressed against the base plate. I'm not sure if that would be ok, but I would consider it in a small space.
You're right if you look at it commercially, the time spent to find out how to make the amp etc. etc., it indeed took me hours.
However, I didn't research commercially: these hours weren't lost for me, as I now have a nice working amp. Nobody had to pay me for this time, it was for myself.
So looking at that, I could build some amps as a "side-job", and only have to look at material price and maybe the time needed to assemble them. I'd have some money on the side that way, even could do it officially. 😀
About the module placement: Of course with the PCB horizontally, I mean horizontally with the T-sink facing up, that's how I have them now.
The thing that seems to heat the most this way is the transistor at the bottom of the T "leg". One module seems to run hotter than the other.
With the sink I use it seems to be allright though, I can touch it just after turning off the amp without problems.
Let me include the photo and see what you think. (don't mind the other components, it's mounted in an old Akai 80's vintage amp, it has a nice big transformer and I can use it again later 😀 )
As for "upside down T", I was thinking of screwing the modules to an aluminum base plate , meaning that the part of the T were the bolts normally go is pressed against the base plate. I'm not sure if that would be ok, but I would consider it in a small space.
Attachments
Roger, congrats, I honestly don't think I've been accused of that yet 🙂
Yves,
Honestly I see from your amp you haven't yet been through the experience of ordering everything you need to make one from ground up, there's alot of people with their hands out from start to finish.
...grumble..... dust those caps off... /grumble 😀
You have your modules mounted the right way up, I see I misunderstood how you had them. It wouldnt' be the best way for convection cooling though because the air would have to flow around the PCB and create a little still pocket above it, that's why a vertical pcb is better. Only way to fix that in a horizontal mount would be with forced air or .... drill holes in the PCB.... I dont' recommend that though. But yeah it's not anywhere near as bad as having it horizontal and upside down, high up in a sealed case. The case should really be vented.
A plate about the thickness of that sink you have, less the fins on it, would be about right I think. If you mount it with a vertical PCB then you're doing away with the still pocket of air and convention cooling will be improved.
The more thermal mass you have in it the better though, so instead of just using a plate, consider making it part of a very thick case. Yup, more money, you bet!
Can you not keep your hand on that heatsink with it running? I'm just guessing about 80W going into it. I'm thinking if keeping your hand on it brings tears to your eyes and burns to your finger your mosfets have got to fry, but thats' not very mathematical..
One module is hotter than the other because they're tuned individually at factory for best (didn't say lowest) thd, and with the different parasitics and component variations, having one a little hotter than the other seems natural.
The plate/case method seems what most people use so I'm sure you can trust it, still recommended by hypex, the min. dimensions of such a plate are given my Jan-Peter someplace in the UCD400 thread.
Regards,
Chris
Yves,
Honestly I see from your amp you haven't yet been through the experience of ordering everything you need to make one from ground up, there's alot of people with their hands out from start to finish.
...grumble..... dust those caps off... /grumble 😀
You have your modules mounted the right way up, I see I misunderstood how you had them. It wouldnt' be the best way for convection cooling though because the air would have to flow around the PCB and create a little still pocket above it, that's why a vertical pcb is better. Only way to fix that in a horizontal mount would be with forced air or .... drill holes in the PCB.... I dont' recommend that though. But yeah it's not anywhere near as bad as having it horizontal and upside down, high up in a sealed case. The case should really be vented.
A plate about the thickness of that sink you have, less the fins on it, would be about right I think. If you mount it with a vertical PCB then you're doing away with the still pocket of air and convention cooling will be improved.
The more thermal mass you have in it the better though, so instead of just using a plate, consider making it part of a very thick case. Yup, more money, you bet!
Can you not keep your hand on that heatsink with it running? I'm just guessing about 80W going into it. I'm thinking if keeping your hand on it brings tears to your eyes and burns to your finger your mosfets have got to fry, but thats' not very mathematical..
One module is hotter than the other because they're tuned individually at factory for best (didn't say lowest) thd, and with the different parasitics and component variations, having one a little hotter than the other seems natural.
The plate/case method seems what most people use so I'm sure you can trust it, still recommended by hypex, the min. dimensions of such a plate are given my Jan-Peter someplace in the UCD400 thread.
Regards,
Chris
I know, it's the ugliest UcD alive at this moment without a doubt, still it sounds like a million bucks! Well... at least it sounds like a 2000$ Class-AB 😀
The dusty "vintage" caps in the middle aren't running in this circuit...
If only I had the time... time... isn't on my side!
The temperature is quite low actually. Just went through 2 hours "Phantom of the opera" in DTS, (amazing sound on that DVD) and my receiver was running quite hot, even just from running 3 channels.
The UcD felt just like it's idling 😱
The dusty "vintage" caps in the middle aren't running in this circuit...
If only I had the time... time... isn't on my side!
The temperature is quite low actually. Just went through 2 hours "Phantom of the opera" in DTS, (amazing sound on that DVD) and my receiver was running quite hot, even just from running 3 channels.
The UcD felt just like it's idling 😱
What would be an acceptable input DC offset voltage in order to be able to bypass the input caps?
You must be below 50mV DC at the output of the amplifier. The gain of the UcD is 20 times (26dB). So the input DC must be below 2,5mV.......to be save 1mV would be the maximum.
Regards,
Jan-Peter
Regards,
Jan-Peter
UcD400AD gain settings
Hello Jan-Peter and Bruno,
I'd like to increase the gain in my UcD400AD modules to about 34dB.
Could you please tell me which resistor should be replaced, and how to calculate the value.
I was reading a previous post and I got confused.
Inputing the values given by J-P: A=1000, B=560, C=1800 and D=8200, in the formula (1+2*A/B)*D/C . I get 20.83, shouldn't that be 26? Am I missing something?
Thanks.
Hello Jan-Peter and Bruno,
I'd like to increase the gain in my UcD400AD modules to about 34dB.
Could you please tell me which resistor should be replaced, and how to calculate the value.
I was reading a previous post and I got confused.
Inputing the values given by J-P: A=1000, B=560, C=1800 and D=8200, in the formula (1+2*A/B)*D/C . I get 20.83, shouldn't that be 26? Am I missing something?
Thanks.
Julien,
Gain of 20,8x is 26dB....
You should decrease the 560 value to the value you would like to have.
34dB --> 10^(34/20)=50x
In the UcD400 you should change R3 (=B)
Jan-Peter
Gain of 20,8x is 26dB....
You should decrease the 560 value to the value you would like to have.
34dB --> 10^(34/20)=50x
In the UcD400 you should change R3 (=B)
Jan-Peter
Thank you for the info Jan-Peter.
I think 200 ohms should provide 50x gain.
Is there any other consideration I should worry about before increasing the gain?
Is distortion and/or noise higher if the gain is increased?
Thanks.
Julien
I think 200 ohms should provide 50x gain.
Is there any other consideration I should worry about before increasing the gain?
Is distortion and/or noise higher if the gain is increased?
Thanks.
Julien
would it be ok to replace the 22uF 50V caps after the regulators with 33uF low-impedance panasonic FC ones? or would it be better to use 22uF ones (rs doesn't supply 22uF)
Bgt said:
Thanks for the suggestion KR.
I was looking at my stock of resistors, and I found two 249 ohms Caddock MK-132.
I'll probly use these if I can find room to solder them in the PCB. That will give me about 32dB. It should be enough...
Otherwise, I'll have to buy some 200 ohms SMD resistors.
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