bear said:
I know that when I was in the SR business, I would have used anything that would provide better performance. Unfortunately, most of the information available to me was either anecdotal or ad copy.
I knew some people who had good systems, but to a large extent they lucked into it since they didn't really understand all the technologies involved. They weren't engineers, physicists, or acousticians.
I still keep in touch with a few people and we talk shop a bit now and then. They're still interested in the various products and technologies available, including CD. Now when it comes to where the best place to employ something like CD, there can be some confusion.
So nothing has really changed for the most part. 🙂
There is at least one manufacturer that sells training as well as products. The training does equip people to use those products well. However, it seems to be extremely narrow in focus, so at the end of the training all you know is that the answer to every problem is Product X.
It has been my experience that all the horn speakers I have heard in the past have had a characteristic "horn" sound or coloration. Some have it more and some have it less, but they all have it.
That doesn't always keep horn loudspeakers from being enjoyable to listen to. Years ago I had a chance to listen to a pair of Klipschorns in a large room. They were wonderful. Lots of presence, good clarity, and they made audio into a very physical thing. I had a lot of fun listening to them. But they still sounded like horns.
I have now had several months experience listening to Earl's Summa Nathans, and they do not sound like typical horns. They are like horns in some ways, but don't have that horn coloration.
In fact, they've surprised several people that have listened to them. After all, everyone knows that they're going to sound like horns, and that pro drivers are no good for home stereo use. Earl's waveguides do not sound like horns, and the pro drivers he uses do a marvelous job for home stereo use. (HT too, but my main focus is music.)
ScottG said:
Have you ever heard a system where the horn started @<300Hz?
Merely curious...
_-_-bear
ZilchLab said:
Any idea why the Pyle horn and the JBL horn are virtually identical? Just serendipity, or is it literally the same part? I noticed that the pic you have of the JBL part from the econo-wave has the JBL logo molded into the plastic. I'm assuming Pyle left that detail out 😀
bear said:
Where it's upper freq. response was less than 300 Hz, no.
I think you are correct here (if I'm guessing correctly), that it is an upper freq. response problem. Basically those mid-bass cone driver horns were operated to high, beyond the point where the freq.s "bounded" to the horn and were instead reflecting. Gives a *very* common horn coloration that makes the loudspeaker easily localized. (i.e. everything sounds as if its coming from within the horn.) I've also hear them with compression/diffraction front chambers - not good either (but a bit different).
ScottG said:
The PRX mid-range waveguide is quite inexpensive. That's a closed-back Eminence mid driver they use with it, so the whole combo is less than $100 from Pro Parts.
Though I don't do 3-Ways, typically, the concept of CD midrange is intriguing, so I do have the components for investigation whenever time affords me the opportunity to do so....
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=201&doctype=3
ScottG said:
I said "started at 300Hz." so that would be the lower frequency limit.
Up in frequency from there. Essentially covering the entire critical listening range of <300Hz. to >5kHz (or usually above 10kHz or better).
Not exactly what I was going for, but I think it is another issue that may cause some problems.
_-_-bear
I've heard - once - horns from about 150Hz up. Absolutely amazing. Nothing else comes close. I'm running about 400Hz up now, sounds nice.
On great horn systems I heard there is the very strange effect of the music not coming from the speakers at all. A very disconcerting effect indeed. Walk right up to the horn and not hear it, even tho you know it's playing. Kinda messes with your head.
On great horn systems I heard there is the very strange effect of the music not coming from the speakers at all. A very disconcerting effect indeed. Walk right up to the horn and not hear it, even tho you know it's playing. Kinda messes with your head.
How high does the frequency response go up to on that one? Looks very interesting, but could not find any data.
See the second catalog link I posted at #1259, above.
AM6200 uses the 8" CMCD, and it's good down to 250 Hz. The HF is 24 dB/octave LR at 2.1 kHz. That waveguide's about $125, and yes, it really is 108 dB sensitivity. Look carefully and you'll see there's a phase plug in front of the mid driver, detail not shown, however:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series/AM6200,95-WH.pdf
Max continuous average SPL - 132 dB. The network's documented there, as well....
AM6200 uses the 8" CMCD, and it's good down to 250 Hz. The HF is 24 dB/octave LR at 2.1 kHz. That waveguide's about $125, and yes, it really is 108 dB sensitivity. Look carefully and you'll see there's a phase plug in front of the mid driver, detail not shown, however:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series/AM6200,95-WH.pdf
Max continuous average SPL - 132 dB. The network's documented there, as well....
bear said:
(sorry about the misinterpretation.)
Yes, I've heard several starting at less than 300 Hz and going up, all with the problems I discussed. (..either heavy diffraction at the throat connection or heavy reflection from being "un-bound" to the waveguide.)
The more generic versions also usually pushed the sound forward (compression), with less depth and were often a little too dynamic (at least compared to the rest of the freq. range).
A *good* compression driver and horn from 300 Hz up usually doesn't have any of these negative qualities. (..and the only good ones I've heard were all conical.) Instead they often (though not always) suffer restricted sound-staging (in width), though typically with good imaging (depending on the axis you listen to for the design).
soongsc said:
Good question. I'm sure I used to know....
They won't go high. But they do cover the vocal range, as they were meant for movie dialog. I've heard the WE15A used very well in the band of about 200Hz to 1Khz. Not a large band, but a rather important one.
I was wondering how to get a single horn/waveguide to provide same coverage as normal wide range cone drivers like the Jordans or Alpairs.
How about this? Is 100 - 10kHz enough? 😀
http://www.aleacousticsusa.com/products.php?type=6
http://www.aleacousticsusa.com/products.php?type=10
http://www.aleacousticsusa.com/products.php?type=6
http://www.aleacousticsusa.com/products.php?type=10
soongsc said:
soongsc said:I was wondering how to get a single horn/waveguide to provide same coverage as normal wide range cone drivers like the Jordans or Alpairs.
On the ALE drivers, what is FRP edge?? What material?
Any images of their innards??
For that money I can build you a lot of them... seriously.
But anyway as mentioned the 555 will go up to 8-10khz alright... I think the throat size and geometry is going to be the limiting factor.
Suggest you just build yourself a very large horn or some expansion with L'Clerc'h lips and enjoy the listening, live with the few compromises that represents... of course the choice of compression driver is critical. (a subject for another day/thread).
Soongsc, you changed ur avatar - NG!! It's not "you"! Before your posts were instantly recognizable, not anymore... 🙁
I disagree with the assessments regarding the imaging and presentation of large horns, or horns in general. The setup in all regards is critical, so the results reported so far (imho) are not endemic to the horn as much as the design/setup in particular.
In any properly set up system, the speakers presence in the room seems to be questionable, and perhaps they ought to be removed so that they don't block any sound??
Or, as I often tell people, if you hear tweeters then something is wrong! (for example)
_-_-bear
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