First, I used this stuff:
Amazon.com: QuietCoat: Musical Instruments
Yes, that good review is mine 😉
After many coats, until it was perhaps 1/8" thick, then letting the stuff dry very thoroughly, I filled the "lips" in front of the mounting flange with this:
Amazon.com: Henkel 828472 PL Premium Polyurethane Construction Adhesive, 28-Ounce: Home Improvement
A 28 oz tube just fills behind one lip, so it took a total of four tubes for both horns. I'm sure regular polyurethane foam or Bondo would work too, but Home Depot had this stuff and it was cheap. For good measure, I also used it to "mummy" the rear parts of the horns.
The ringing used to make my 511s unlistenable at even moderate levels; various notes on piano runs would squeak and honk, and certain notes, especially on voice, had a hollow "down in the barrel" sound. Now I can crank them as much as I please without hearing any bizarre effects.
Was it worth the effort? I think so. People with much better hearing than mine enjoy listening to them for extended periods; they sometimes even ask to turn them up. The clarity and detail are excellent, although it also took hanging some absorptive drapes in my listening room to get the most out of them.
Were they hi-fi before the damping? H*ll no; but they are now 😀
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Questions for Joe Roberts
Joe,
Help me out here, I tried to use the Altec 511's to change oil on the wife's Benz, they wouldn't fit under the car..... wouldn't fit under my lifted 4WD either...... OK so forget the 511's.... they're needed in the garage audio system anyway. And no cracks about load testing the 50T press either!
Now lets talk about the Emilar Bow-tie; I have an assortment of JBL and TAD compression drivers..... not to mention a little P-audio Neo that beats them all and a pair of the Bow-tie's
Your thoughts on how to best use them.
Cyclotronguy
Joe,
Help me out here, I tried to use the Altec 511's to change oil on the wife's Benz, they wouldn't fit under the car..... wouldn't fit under my lifted 4WD either...... OK so forget the 511's.... they're needed in the garage audio system anyway. And no cracks about load testing the 50T press either!
Now lets talk about the Emilar Bow-tie; I have an assortment of JBL and TAD compression drivers..... not to mention a little P-audio Neo that beats them all and a pair of the Bow-tie's
Your thoughts on how to best use them.
Cyclotronguy
Nope. Take it from a roofing guy and don't revisit the idea. Put the torch down and walk away from the horn. 🙂
Use the peel and stick type with the poly face if you must but they will smell like a new roof for the first year and every time you move or touch them after that. (see my next post)
No problem but...(see above)
Lasts 25 years on a roof, longer if you keep it out of the sun.
Most Altec 511b owners drive monster trucks and have no problem with the 511B. If it won't fit under your vehicle, that's what they made the 811 for! Or you can use a throat from a Manta Ray for really tight spaces.
My experience with the Emilar 800hz bowties is limited to using Altec 802s and EC175s crossed at 1250hz. Both sounded quite fine. I remember reading somewhere that they get a little rough crossed over at 800. Here I was comparing Renkus Heinz 800hz exponentials vs the Emilars (both spawned under Jonas Renkus' management).
The Emilar had a sweeter sound than the Renkus SSH-800, which was crystal clear and perhaps a touch on the lean side, but really nice too. I put RC peaking networks at 6kc on both eventually. Both horns were very open and non honky.
Later I landed a pair of Emilar EH-500 with the rare 1" adapters. I have been loving this horn with the 2" Renkus drivers and it sounded better to me than the bowtie on the 1" EC175s also.
I admit I have not tried the 511Bs recently but I did beat them into the ground trying to get them to work, on numerous past occasions. I just thought they were a bit raspy and edgy, beyond the mechanical ringing issues.
I am not sure what to recommend, except that if you got em hook em up and give them a try.
Keep the xover as high as your woofer will allow--at 1250 hz/12db, I was not hearing any disturbing horn artifacts. The TADs might be more extended than the 802s and EC175s. so maybe you won't need HF boost for your subjective satisfaction.
My point in bringing these up is that there are reasonably common, small, low budget horns that to my ear work better than the old standby cast Altec sectorals.
I am a huge Altec fan but these clangers were not their best effort in my experience. Some people love em, but maybe they would love the bowties and the other 80s horns mentioned above even more if they gave them a try.
The torch on stuff will not drip, the peel and stick stuff will "creep" on a hot day
Use two layers.
I am a ex-torcher and would not consider doing this.
That stuff looks to be the foil faced stuff?
Roofing felts? I wonder if that's a generic kind of term. Roofing felts have little to no damping qualities.
Actually, most of the roofing materials have memory and will attempt to return to flat. The only one I can think of that might work here is 'EPDM detail tape'. It can be applied to compound curves and will self vulcanize over time.
Emilar 500 Hz horn
Joe
A friend of mine has a pair of Emilar 500 Hz horns, which seem to be recycled from old big block Chevy iron...... serious castings to be sure and no resonances that I can detect.
The horns came from the BB King organization the TAD 4001's bolted to them surplus from the Disney folks in Winter Park and blessed by one of our favorite recording engineers.
They sound fantastic..... but I think the combination has an intelligence where by they just know what music is supposed to sound like.
Cyclotronguy
Joe
A friend of mine has a pair of Emilar 500 Hz horns, which seem to be recycled from old big block Chevy iron...... serious castings to be sure and no resonances that I can detect.
The horns came from the BB King organization the TAD 4001's bolted to them surplus from the Disney folks in Winter Park and blessed by one of our favorite recording engineers.
They sound fantastic..... but I think the combination has an intelligence where by they just know what music is supposed to sound like.
Cyclotronguy
I meant using small hand held propane torch and heating relatively small pieces . It's doable.
Now I've gotten myself a tar filled 805's (no damping necessary )but the shipper did a poor packing job and throat adapter brass plate got bent in the corner. I'm affraid to hammer it back fearing the brass would crack , it's so thick ,maybe heating it up would help?
And , uhh there was an ad on Audiogon for Shindo Altec Valencia speaker using stock 416-8A woofer and 811B horn with 806 driver selling for mere $13k used (I bet it was close to $20k new) so aparently they can be made sounding good or all those Shindo Dudley's are delusional.
Now I've gotten myself a tar filled 805's (no damping necessary )but the shipper did a poor packing job and throat adapter brass plate got bent in the corner. I'm affraid to hammer it back fearing the brass would crack , it's so thick ,maybe heating it up would help?
And , uhh there was an ad on Audiogon for Shindo Altec Valencia speaker using stock 416-8A woofer and 811B horn with 806 driver selling for mere $13k used (I bet it was close to $20k new) so aparently they can be made sounding good or all those Shindo Dudley's are delusional.
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At least Shindo proved that they can be made expensive.
The concept of running a classic but second-tier Altec design through the Japanese mojo machine and selling it back to us is total genius!
One advantage of using mostly ignored 70s-80s stuff like Emilar is that it lies outside the holy Altec/WE pantheon and you can listen to it without burning incense and chanting nam myoho renge kyo.
Many Shindo owners are happy with their sound. I think it is because they are finally hearing something conceived outside the often dubious US/Euro high end design miasma that harkens back to good old straight up tube design of the 50s and 60s--vintage style parts, classic inspired circuitry.
Maybe one is indeed better off with a jazzed-up Valencia than most of the uninspired $10-20k box speakers polluting the cosmos these days.
Shindo Latour - Altec Valencia Speaker System | Full range | Tampa, Florida 33606 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community
I was off $1k ,it was probably a bargain at $11.990 used . Cabinetry is pretty I have to admit and knowing what cabinet makers charge it would cost at least $3k to custom build it.
Cal , you can show it to your wife although it's hard to imagine she could love you even more😀)
I was off $1k ,it was probably a bargain at $11.990 used . Cabinetry is pretty I have to admit and knowing what cabinet makers charge it would cost at least $3k to custom build it.
Cal , you can show it to your wife although it's hard to imagine she could love you even more😀)
limono:
The secret of some Japanese audio dealers I know is that when they have a horn that requires repair, they take it to an auto body shop. Who knows better how to fix bent metal?
The notion that tar filled horns do not require damping is more complicated than it first appears. Go knock on that horn and you will see that it does in fact produce sound. A mid/high frequency tick tick. Well, the horn rings at that frequency.
After trying both sheet metal and tar filled versions of several Altecs, I decided I like the sheet metal a little bit more. They were a bit richer than the tar filleds, which were a slight bit edgier. Which you prefer is up to your ear. As always, the best horn is the one you have in hand!
The tar in these horns is not soft. It is hard as a rock and will chip like glass.
Maybe our resident roofers can tell us more about tar recipes?
The secret of some Japanese audio dealers I know is that when they have a horn that requires repair, they take it to an auto body shop. Who knows better how to fix bent metal?
The notion that tar filled horns do not require damping is more complicated than it first appears. Go knock on that horn and you will see that it does in fact produce sound. A mid/high frequency tick tick. Well, the horn rings at that frequency.
After trying both sheet metal and tar filled versions of several Altecs, I decided I like the sheet metal a little bit more. They were a bit richer than the tar filleds, which were a slight bit edgier. Which you prefer is up to your ear. As always, the best horn is the one you have in hand!
The tar in these horns is not soft. It is hard as a rock and will chip like glass.
Maybe our resident roofers can tell us more about tar recipes?
It is nice cabinet work, but man, are these speakers really worth 12 grand? If I sit and think about what I could make with 12 grand, it doesn't look anything like this, haha!
limono, that could be tough to straighten. Now that the metal has been sent into compression, straightening it out might just bust it clean off. I would take it to a blacksmith so they can heat it and straighten it out properly. It will be worth every penny, 'cause as everyone knows, next to the big multi-cells, that 811/511 family are some of the best horns ever designed and built in the history of mankind.
I see those other comments. Hah, they're just jealous they don't own them. The ones that say they did are either lying to cover up their inadequacies as men or they had to pawn them off after falling on hards times and are ashamed to come clean with us. No other way around it.
Fine you can keep your funny looking bow ties and your Mick Jagger lips/Baby butt cheeks (where do they come up with this stuff) horns, I'ma gonna stick wit' me Altecs cause I know a good thing when I see it and so do the Japanese. I don't need RRSP's, I have Altec's to sell off in my senior years. Let's see you do the with your Emilar's. 😀
I see those other comments. Hah, they're just jealous they don't own them. The ones that say they did are either lying to cover up their inadequacies as men or they had to pawn them off after falling on hards times and are ashamed to come clean with us. No other way around it.
Fine you can keep your funny looking bow ties and your Mick Jagger lips/Baby butt cheeks (where do they come up with this stuff) horns, I'ma gonna stick wit' me Altecs cause I know a good thing when I see it and so do the Japanese. I don't need RRSP's, I have Altec's to sell off in my senior years. Let's see you do the with your Emilar's. 😀
Yeah right...that's why Shindo is trying to sell them back to us.
I predict that 511Bs will be worth as much as NASCAR collectibles in 15 years.
Limono is in Chicago...not exactly a blacksmith on every corner anymore up in The Windy City.
I, on the other hand, live next to Colonial Williamsburg. I actually know where I can find a blacksmith. Hell, I can even find a farrier or candlemaker if I need one.
Lucky, some of those professions are pretty much impossible to find now, I was watching something on the discovery channel the other day and they said something about how few blacksmiths there are nowdays compared to just a couple of decades ago.
I wonder if this hobby would be harder or easier if it was like it was in the old days, knowing what we know now, but having access to friends and relatives that were skilled craftsmen who could make us things.
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