Hi-End and Hi-Efficency loudspeakers (horn + onken)

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For DIYers it absolutely makes sense - I'm not a DIYer, never have been. I hate building speakers, its just the only way that I could get anything decent.
But for a business I don't think that it makes nearly as much sense unless its an embedded system, then it can actually be cheaper. But embedded systems have huge entry costs - and I mean huge. We looked at this quite intensely at AI because my partner was a big fan of active. In the end he had to agree that the advantages did not look attractive enough to justify the costs.

Fair enough.

Thats because your comment was an insult. I never insulted you.

Im sorry you took it as such, it wasn't. I simply meant they are bigger and have incredible success in the audio business and they have active designs. Which goes against your generalization saying "Active designs are not viable in business". Before you say sure they are huge so it works, I would then post what about Mark Seaton? He is small like yourself and his catalyst designs are incredible active designs.




One point that is of interest. We found that we were blowing up a lot of compression drivers and almost 2:1 in passive systems (about 1/2 of the systems were active at the time). Then I figured it out. The active system always had some HF limiting on clipped harmonics (LP). No one (that I know of) LP filters the passive system at 20 kHz or so to keep the clipping harmonics out. Once we started doing that the failures equalized out. Clipping in the clubs in Thailand was a constant state of affairs. Asians it seems have a passion for bad sound - "It ain't right till its clippin'"

That is a good point, limiters is another usable feature.
 
Apelizzo, no need to leave, your input is valuable. Please continue to post.
You have not done anything wrong.

But here at diyAudio we need to tighten up our posting and be clear about what is fact and what is opinion. There are too many readers here who simply don't know which is which.

I have edited my post above.

Dear Moderator,
Thanks for considering my input as valuable. I do not have the knowledge of many members in this forum but I try within my limits to give what I can.
I just want you to confirm that this is DIY audio. From this forum I exchange knowledge to build a set of speakers that I really enjoy. I want to thank everyone for that, EXCEPT those who are into business and keep their "secrets" for themselves and publish non constructive comments.

I believe DIY gives the freedom to break down "business driven boundaries" where for example GEDLEE may choose to remain for business convenience (which is nothing wrong with that, but what are you doing here if you don't share anything?).

I believe DIY can give better results just for that simple reason.

If I want to re-phase my filter by optocoupling the signal with a LASER running through 50 prisms and it works, that is my business. I like it, I enjoy it and that is IMO DIY all about.
 
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Pretty much have to agree with you there, and why I finally abandoned my plans for an active X-O in my current system. Three sets of expensive tube amplifiers and all the supporting electronics.. The one instance where I've found it makes a difference is when very high spls are desired and the LF signal content causes the power amplifier to clip an appreciable amount of the time - Active may sound significantly better in that situation. Certainly was the case with the MI amps I worked on long ago at Fishman. (Did the electronics design, specified the acoustic design)


Just a comment with something I've got in my mind I want to try.

Why you use expensive amplifier for bi-amp?
OK, in this thread this speaker has been conceived for a small SE tube amp like 2A3 for example. Now, to make a good wide band transformer is very difficult IMO. It involves careful design, special grade material and so on. A wide band amplifier IMO is not fully utilized in a bi-amp system.
Then the cost of the amplifier goes up.

I believe a narrow band output transformer is easier to make and can be designed as LP or HP. This is a rough idea I like to experiment without making money.
 
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That is a good point, limiters is another usable feature.

Limiters don't always help - especially if you are not using them, or using them wrong. One can still clip a system even with a limiter in place. Limiters look at long term RMS values and can often be passed by a short term transient like a drum impulse, etc almost continuously depending of the time constants. Its precisely these kinds of transients that clip the system and there is often nothing in place to stop the ultra high frequency content from the cliped signal,that does nothing more than heat the compression drivers voice coil. Audiophiles never see this situation, they wouldn't tolerate it, but these young sound mixers do it almost continuosly.

Never in my life have I heard such bad mixing as in Thailand and China. I mean it's like it has to sound bad or something is wrong. I cannot even comprehend some of the stuff that I have heard.

Earl: "Do you hear that!?:eek:"

Asian "Yea, sounds great!":)

:rolleyes:
 
Excuse me!!!:eek: Do you really believe that I "don't share anything"? That is simply absurd.

Prove it. Unless you have different way of sharing something that I cannot see. I don't know why you are against Thai people. They enjoy what they have. I'm currently reading this thread.
I have nothing against what you are doing and I'll be glad to learn a tiny bit from you for free without buying your books. Just something you have learnt for free, nothing more.
 
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To Apelizzo,

Although you already seem to be on the right track, my advice would be to never "tame" your design creativity when building speakers or any DIY audio projects as a matter of fact. Try things out and never hesitate to go against the trend!

Beauty of DIY audio is to let you "experiment" by getting your hands dirty, learning things up on your own.
If it works, sounds what you like or expected, performs on measurements. Great! Who cares what others think?
If it doesn't (or most likely, you just want to tweak something else), go back to the drawing board for a new design. Goofy idea or not, it will be just as rewarding!:)

Whether you choose an analog or digital crossover, who cares. Just build whatever you want to and see it for yourself. "Experts" can make some "interesting" claims at times...

Tony

PS: couldn't help to notice another "interesting claim"... I2S on miniDSP isn't 16bit, 44.1kHz but 24bit, 48kHz.
 
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:cop: Please remember that this is first and foremost a DIY site. A "for fun" site.
Normal business models do not apply to the DIY pursuit. Please take that into consideration when reading posts by those in the business. (This includes me).

Also please remember when you post your opinion, it is that, your opinion. Opinions and experience are welcome here. But if you don't have controlled tests, research or a body of published works to back it up, then it should not be considered "fact." It should be considered your opinion/experience. Very valuable when stated as such.

Bottom line: When posting remember that not everyone here has the audio knowledge or experience to know what is simply opinion, and what has solid research to back it up.
Keeping this in mind will avoid a lot of future misunderstandings and disputes.
 
To Apelizzo,

Although you already seem to be on the right track, my advice would be to never "tame" your design creativity when building speakers or any DIY audio projects as a matter of fact. Try things out and never hesitate to go against the trend!

Beauty of DIY audio is to let you "experiment" by getting your hands dirty, learning things up on your own.
If it works, sounds what you like or expected, performs on measurements. Great! Who cares what others think?
If it doesn't (or most likely, you just want to tweak something else), go back to the drawing board for a new design. Goofy idea or not, it will be just as rewarding!:)

Whether you choose an analog or digital crossover, who cares. Just build whatever you want to and see it for yourself. "Experts" can make some "interesting" claims at times...

Tony

PS: couldn't help to notice another "interesting claim"... I2S on miniDSP isn't 16bit, 44.1kHz but 24bit, 48kHz.


Tony,
by saying that you make me more happy than any good speaker sound.
I love what you said. I actually print it out and stick on my workbench.
My best humble regards.
 
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apelizzo,
It is true that this project born to be driven by a little 2A3 PSE with 5-7w but someone could use there drivers with two different amplifiers, one 2A3 SE 2-3w for the high frequency and one 2A3 PP 7-10w for the low frequency.
I am not sure of the result.
 
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apelizzo,
It is true that this project born to be driven by a little 2A3 PSE with 5-7w but someone could use there drivers with two different amplifiers, one 2A3 SE 2-3w for the high frequency and one 2A3 PP 7-10w for the low frequency.
I am not sure of the result.

Thanks to your good research I'm already happy about the speaker even though I brought some modifications to your original design.
But I love experiments so I will soon start winding two different output transformers for two single ended amplifiers. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any formula capable to predict with acceptable accuracy the cross over point frequency response of two HP and LP transformers. If DSP is required then it's welcome. HP transformer also protects the compression driver. I'm concern about directly coupling a wide band amplifier to a compression driver unless used carefully. I've done it before and I had to unplug the horn before switching on and off the amplifier. This is bad for valve amplifiers IMO as can easily short the transformers.
 
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Nice work:cheers:

The horn measures extreme flat very good Andrea. I bet it sounds very smooth together with the low distortion of the horn driver.

Those are 20 db increments , not close to being flat ....... :cool:

Excuse me, but I only use passive crossovers because the best active can do is equal a passive at a much higher cost. This is not good engineering.

:eek: I actually agree with you here gedlee, But i do understand there predicament , very few can do a good passive .....

Active x-overs and active equalization even when done thru DSP , have an negative global effect, which does not show up on the high voltage side with passive x-overs. IMO... of course you will always have that "situation" that requires an active set up ...horses for courses.


:magnify:
 
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Probably I am selling my horns for CP380 with wood stand at 100 euro + shipping.
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEff/horn11.jpg

The new project with the new drivers is incredible, never ear before this sound.

The female voices are better than my reference 3 with 7" hi-end mid-woofer.

The bass frequency are very fast.

I suggest this project to any single ended lover.

Also the Glisdome run good!
 
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