chops said:
OK, that would be interesting.
The trouble with measuring OB close is that the baffle will appear larger to the mic than it really is, so you should see bass lift in the results. Let's see if you really do. I always have.
And the horn should be a little hotter from about 2K up, when you are at 1M instead of 12 feet. ~~ Flat for the horn should be fine at 1M, then you'll see a drop off at 12 feet. You should see less bass at 12 feet than at 1M because of the rear wave cancellation.
Anyhow, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Ouch! But what the heck, a set of good compression drivers isn't cheap.
Re: Chops check out Radian...
The Radians and GPAs are about the same price per, so with keeping things as close to the original, I'd rather go with the GPAs, since they are exact dupes of the originals. Plus I have heard that the Radians do not sound as good as the Altecs/GPAs. Of course, that is subjective.
moray james said:
The Radians and GPAs are about the same price per, so with keeping things as close to the original, I'd rather go with the GPAs, since they are exact dupes of the originals. Plus I have heard that the Radians do not sound as good as the Altecs/GPAs. Of course, that is subjective.
panomaniac said:
OK, that would be interesting.
The trouble with measuring OB close is that the baffle will appear larger to the mic than it really is, so you should see bass lift in the results. Let's see if you really do. I always have.
And the horn should be a little hotter from about 2K up, when you are at 1M instead of 12 feet. ~~ Flat for the horn should be fine at 1M, then you'll see a drop off at 12 feet. You should see less bass at 12 feet than at 1M because of the rear wave cancellation.
Anyhow, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Ouch! But what the heck, a set of good compression drivers isn't cheap.
Well, I did what you suggested and here's the results.
First, I want to mention that there is a "True Curve" feature on the DEQ1024 that makes the output signal "look" just like the placement of the sliders instead of peaks and nulls from neighboring frequencies. More can be read here... http://www.behringer.com/DEQ1024/index.cfm?lang=eng You will see where this comes into play later on.
1) Anyway, here's the 1M graph of the left channel after readjusting the EQ...
2) Since the DEQ1024 can ONLY adjust both channels at one time, here's the right channel at 1M with the same tweaks from the left channel. The blue trace is because I forgot to run the mic off...
3) This is the correction from the left channel at 1M (1st pic above), but now both channels driven 12' away at the listening position...
4) This is both channels driven at the listening position and re-tweaked, but NOT touching anything above 2kHz...
5) Same thing as #4 above, but with "True Curve" activated...
6) These three pics are the different curves on the EQ itself. 1st is from a few days ago, 2nd is after measuring the left channel at 1M, and the 3rd is after measuring and re-tweaking with both channels driven at the listening position...
I'll go into further details in a few. Right now, dinner is ready and I must go feed my face!
Well, all I can say so far is that I have a few mixed feelings about the latest tweaks.
(A) & (D) The EQ settings from a few days ago after first batch of measurements, all done at the listening position.
(B) & (E) The EQ settings after measuring the left channel only and getting a pretty flat response @ 1 meter.
(C) & (F) The EQ settings after measuring both channels at the listening position, mostly leaving everything from 1.25kHz on up untouched after the "B" settings.
First, the system sounds brighter now than it did a few days ago! That doesn't make much sense to me. You can clearly see that I knocked the top-end back quite a bit. It even shows on the graphs.
Second, there's something fishy going on in the midrange now as the horns are starting to sound like "horns" again. IOW, there's a bit of honkiness going on which wasn't there before. In fact, I was able to completely get rid of it a few days ago. I think that might be that peak around 900Hz, which also happens to be the new xover frequency.
Third, the upper-bass or lower-midrange (whichever you want to call it) it a little thicker sounding now. Almost conjested with some music. There's excellent, tight "kick" to the bass, but sometimes seems a bit much. However, overall low bass extension is excellent. In fact, I don't know if it's because these drivers are breaking in still or what, but they seem to be extending a little deeper now than a few days ago. If you look at graph "F", it kind of shows this. The roll-off isn't as steep as it was before.
So at this point, the current tune is kind of iffy to me. It will be a couple of days or so until I can sit down and do some more listening... or testing for that matter.
Hey Chops, you're putting a lot of work into this. And thanks for letting me play with the system by "remote control."
The B setting looks to me like what I would expect to see. You've got a shelving low pass for the OB woofers and a shelving high pass for the Altec horn roll off. Most of the Altec crossovers had a HP shelving section to pull up the top end.
Only odd thing is that big notch at 800Hz. My guess is that it's a crossover problem. Have you tried reversing the polarity of the horns? It might be a phase/delay thing. Your Rane x-over has a delay circuit to bring the drivers into alignment, have you tried tweaking that? It might kill that spike if you can get it just right. I'll bet it will be touchy, tho.
See what a combo of delay tweaking and polarity swapping can do for you.
It also looks like you want to turn up the low end just a bit. You can do that at the output of the crossover.
Your thick sound may be coming in part form that bump at 70Hz. The 70 bump makes for a warm, thick sort of bass. Not bad, but not accurate. Much better than a peak at 100Hz, that sound like very bad stereo and thumping car you've ever heard.
Keep up the good work, you'll get there soon!
The B setting looks to me like what I would expect to see. You've got a shelving low pass for the OB woofers and a shelving high pass for the Altec horn roll off. Most of the Altec crossovers had a HP shelving section to pull up the top end.
Only odd thing is that big notch at 800Hz. My guess is that it's a crossover problem. Have you tried reversing the polarity of the horns? It might be a phase/delay thing. Your Rane x-over has a delay circuit to bring the drivers into alignment, have you tried tweaking that? It might kill that spike if you can get it just right. I'll bet it will be touchy, tho.
See what a combo of delay tweaking and polarity swapping can do for you.
It also looks like you want to turn up the low end just a bit. You can do that at the output of the crossover.
Your thick sound may be coming in part form that bump at 70Hz. The 70 bump makes for a warm, thick sort of bass. Not bad, but not accurate. Much better than a peak at 100Hz, that sound like very bad stereo and thumping car you've ever heard.
Keep up the good work, you'll get there soon!
panomaniac said:Hey Chops, you're putting a lot of work into this. And thanks for letting me play with the system by "remote control."
The B setting looks to me like what I would expect to see. You've got a shelving low pass for the OB woofers and a shelving high pass for the Altec horn roll off. Most of the Altec crossovers had a HP shelving section to pull up the top end.
Only odd thing is that big notch at 800Hz. My guess is that it's a crossover problem. Have you tried reversing the polarity of the horns? It might be a phase/delay thing. Your Rane x-over has a delay circuit to bring the drivers into alignment, have you tried tweaking that? It might kill that spike if you can get it just right. I'll bet it will be touchy, tho.
See what a combo of delay tweaking and polarity swapping can do for you.
It also looks like you want to turn up the low end just a bit. You can do that at the output of the crossover.
Your thick sound may be coming in part form that bump at 70Hz. The 70 bump makes for a warm, thick sort of bass. Not bad, but not accurate. Much better than a peak at 100Hz, that sound like very bad stereo and thumping car you've ever heard.
Keep up the good work, you'll get there soon!
Yeah, I've been putting some time into this. Of course, I want it correct and natural. So how does it feel controlling someone's hifi system over the internet?! LOL
I've been at it again today, this time for several hours. I started completely from scratch, putting the xover and EQ settings to "zero" so to speak. I turned the horns off and just played with the xover settings on the Ushers only. Once I got them where I wanted them with the proper xover point, I turned them off and had a go with the horns. I did the same with them minus the xover point. Once I got their levels just right, I turned the Ushers back on and tweaked with the woofer delay settings until everything was plending as close to perfect as I could get them.
You know, I remember reading somewhere that if you use and adjust a crossover properly (xover point, levels, delay), it can have a similar effect as using a parametric EQ. After spending a couple hours alone simply adjusting the xover, I now see how this is completely possible! Without even touching the EQ, I was able to get a pretty decent flat response from 100Hz all the way up to 10kHz and completely eliminating that annoying peak around 1kHz I had before.
So back to tuning... Once I got everything sounding as good as possible with JUST the xover, I started work on the EQ. With about an hour of tweaking, the EQ itself looks totally different and civilized compared to before, as does the curve on the SynRTA graph.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And just a couple pics of the RTA setup...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hey Chopprr! I wondered where you had gotten off to. I missed this post form last week. Must have been when the big storm came thru and flooded us and killed the power for 2 days.
I like it, I like it. I helps me learn about my system, too. Let's hope the other readers are getting something from this. You've even got me wanting one of those digital EQs. Me, Mr. "I hate graphic EQs."
You read that in the users manual of your Rane crossover, of course!. It is a well written manual and well worth a read. Rane always has great documentation. Makes me think of a Tascam mixing console manual I had many years ago. A great little primer on pro audio. I learned a lot from it.
So yes, the crossover is your friend. Active or passive - it's just faster with active. It seems a lot of guys in pro sound don't give much thought to the crossovers, but they can really make a difference in how well the system works. Your radically new EQ graph shows that very well.
Signal flow, signal flow, signal flow, it all about signal flow. That is one thing that pro audio guys do well. It served me handsomely when I moved into video and graphics projection. Lots of signals flowing there.
Yep, that's the way to do. Horse before the cart, don't you know? If you haven't already, go back and reread your Rane manual and check out the section on delay settings. That will help a lot.
FYI , you should turn your measurement mic off axis. Both the Behringer and the Rat Shack meter are meant to measure rooms, not speakers directly. If you turn the mic about 70~80 degs off axis, you'll get a flatter response in the high end.
Keep up the good work! It's starting to really come together. You must be enjoying it.
chops said:
I like it, I like it.
I helps me learn about my system, too. Let's hope the other readers are getting something from this. You've even got me wanting one of those digital EQs. Me, Mr. "I hate graphic EQs."You read that in the users manual of your Rane crossover, of course!. It is a well written manual and well worth a read. Rane always has great documentation. Makes me think of a Tascam mixing console manual I had many years ago. A great little primer on pro audio. I learned a lot from it.
So yes, the crossover is your friend. Active or passive - it's just faster with active. It seems a lot of guys in pro sound don't give much thought to the crossovers, but they can really make a difference in how well the system works. Your radically new EQ graph shows that very well.
Signal flow, signal flow, signal flow, it all about signal flow. That is one thing that pro audio guys do well. It served me handsomely when I moved into video and graphics projection. Lots of signals flowing there.
Yep, that's the way to do. Horse before the cart, don't you know? If you haven't already, go back and reread your Rane manual and check out the section on delay settings. That will help a lot.
FYI , you should turn your measurement mic off axis. Both the Behringer and the Rat Shack meter are meant to measure rooms, not speakers directly. If you turn the mic about 70~80 degs off axis, you'll get a flatter response in the high end.
Keep up the good work! It's starting to really come together. You must be enjoying it.
panomaniac said:
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope everything is alright on your end. When those 3 hurricanes hit us in a row a few years back, it was pretty rough and we were out of power for a while as well. Luckily, the only damage done to our house was a little flooding in two of the bedrooms.
I like it, I like it.
For the longest time, I refused to use an EQ as well. But you know what, if one is used properly, you will never know it's in the system. This little DEQ1024 is a nice unit, even if it "cheap" and looked down apon audiophiles, as is nearly everything Behringer.
Their loss I say.Of course! Now I remember. I should have remembered that ealier...
Yeah, the EQ curve is radical compared to before. Also, it has slightly changed some more, this time on the lower end between 100-500Hz. It's nearly flat now. That's after several hours of listening then tweaking a bit by ear. The top end certainly sounds a lot better than ever before!
That's exactly what I did. That's how I was able to get that nasty 1kHz peak totally eliminated. BTW, that 1kHz spike would pop up when the xover point for the Ushers would reach 800Hz or higher. Keeping it below 800Hz (600Hz to be exact) completely wiped that spike off the chart. The midrange sounds very clean and natural now.
I kind of wondered about that since my ears don't point directly at the speakers either. So I should have them pointed 70-80 degrees towards the ceiling, right?
You know what that means, don't you?... I'll have to break out the test equipment again to do some more measuring!
Thanks! Yeah, the more I listen to my system, the more I notice in the music and the more I notice how natural and effortless everything sounds. So in short, I'm definately enjoying it!
BTW, Merry Christmas!!!
RWTWR Open Baffles!
BTW, I'm contemplating on incorporating 4 ripoles into my OB's (2 per side, 1 on top, 1 on bottom) using 15" pro drivers with a decent amount of xmax and efficiency.
If I were to do this, I would have the single slot facing forward going through the OB's and have the other two slots facing the rear towards the wall. I would have to upgrade my current Rane stereo 2-way xover to a stereo 3-way version. I would then cross them over around 150-200Hz, maybe even a little lower around 100Hz. I have heard that ripoles can have a little bit of a "boxy" sound to them, so I figure crossing them lower should help solve that issue and keep them well away of the midrange area.
With 4 ripoles (EIGHT 15" drivers total), and high efficiency drivers at that, how do you think this would work out? I honestly think that they should be able to produce enough output and keep up with the Ushers/Altecs. And yes, I know that ripoles are more inefficient, so the more efficient the drivers are, and the more drivers there are, the better, hence my current idea of using a total of eight highly efficient drivers (97-99dB 1W/1M range).
Note: These would only be used for music. When watching movies, I would keep all the settings the same except that I switch on the subwoofer for all the deep rumbles, explosions and such.
So what do you all think?
BTW, I'm contemplating on incorporating 4 ripoles into my OB's (2 per side, 1 on top, 1 on bottom) using 15" pro drivers with a decent amount of xmax and efficiency.
If I were to do this, I would have the single slot facing forward going through the OB's and have the other two slots facing the rear towards the wall. I would have to upgrade my current Rane stereo 2-way xover to a stereo 3-way version. I would then cross them over around 150-200Hz, maybe even a little lower around 100Hz. I have heard that ripoles can have a little bit of a "boxy" sound to them, so I figure crossing them lower should help solve that issue and keep them well away of the midrange area.
With 4 ripoles (EIGHT 15" drivers total), and high efficiency drivers at that, how do you think this would work out? I honestly think that they should be able to produce enough output and keep up with the Ushers/Altecs. And yes, I know that ripoles are more inefficient, so the more efficient the drivers are, and the more drivers there are, the better, hence my current idea of using a total of eight highly efficient drivers (97-99dB 1W/1M range).
Note: These would only be used for music. When watching movies, I would keep all the settings the same except that I switch on the subwoofer for all the deep rumbles, explosions and such.
So what do you all think?
Hi Chops --
I think that it would probably be okay, but perhaps there are some points you might want to take another look at. First, at 150hz I suspect that you might have some resonance issues with the ripoles. I don't know for certain, but probably something you might want to check into. Second, with putting one at the top and one at the bottom, at the wavenlengths we're talking about I'm not aware of any benefit only added complexity. I would think that two ripoles at the bottom would be an easier build without any sonic drawbacks. YMMV, of course.
I will throw out that since you're a no-holds-barred kind of guy, I'd like to see you try a Gary Pimm-style cardiod setup that he posted about here.
Regards,
John
I think that it would probably be okay, but perhaps there are some points you might want to take another look at. First, at 150hz I suspect that you might have some resonance issues with the ripoles. I don't know for certain, but probably something you might want to check into. Second, with putting one at the top and one at the bottom, at the wavenlengths we're talking about I'm not aware of any benefit only added complexity. I would think that two ripoles at the bottom would be an easier build without any sonic drawbacks. YMMV, of course.
I will throw out that since you're a no-holds-barred kind of guy, I'd like to see you try a Gary Pimm-style cardiod setup that he posted about here.
Regards,
John
Hi Chops - Merry Christmas!
Things are looking good in your crazy music room. If I ever move back to Florida, I'll have to build a dedicated audio room of my own.
The EQ. Yeah, I figure that as long as the math is done right in the Behringer (not a gvien) then it should not hurt the signal path at all. I would use it digital in and out. Use my own DAC at the end. Would have to use the analog in for some sources, but no worries.
Good to hear that moving the x-over point and tweaking the delay fixed your 1K peak.
As for the mic, I don't know. Turn it toward the ceiling, I guess - that's what I do. Maybe better yet, toward the sofa - it shouldn't reflect too much. What happens when the mic is pointed straight at the driver is a pressure build up in font of the mic capsule. That will give you a high end bump that depends on the size of the capsule. You can see that bump on the FR graph for the mic. Not a big deal, as long as you know it's there.
Feeling the need for big bass, are you? Not getting the kick out of Chicken Run that you should? Doesn't your RANE x-over do 2-way+ mono sub? Might be the place to start.
And, as Nullspace says "since you're a no-holds-barred kind of guy" why not try a big, folded TTL? Have a look at this monster:
http://jgbouska.tripod.com/audio/hwaudio.jpg
See the big tube in the corner? That's a 13ft folded transmission line on an 18" Altec woofer. Mega bass.
Look around Jack's site for more info. I'll bet you could do the same thing with a low FS 15"
Things are looking good in your crazy music room.
If I ever move back to Florida, I'll have to build a dedicated audio room of my own.The EQ. Yeah, I figure that as long as the math is done right in the Behringer (not a gvien) then it should not hurt the signal path at all. I would use it digital in and out. Use my own DAC at the end. Would have to use the analog in for some sources, but no worries.
Good to hear that moving the x-over point and tweaking the delay fixed your 1K peak.
As for the mic, I don't know. Turn it toward the ceiling, I guess - that's what I do. Maybe better yet, toward the sofa - it shouldn't reflect too much. What happens when the mic is pointed straight at the driver is a pressure build up in font of the mic capsule. That will give you a high end bump that depends on the size of the capsule. You can see that bump on the FR graph for the mic. Not a big deal, as long as you know it's there.
Feeling the need for big bass, are you? Not getting the kick out of Chicken Run that you should?
Doesn't your RANE x-over do 2-way+ mono sub? Might be the place to start.And, as Nullspace says "since you're a no-holds-barred kind of guy" why not try a big, folded TTL? Have a look at this monster:
http://jgbouska.tripod.com/audio/hwaudio.jpg
See the big tube in the corner? That's a 13ft folded transmission line on an 18" Altec woofer. Mega bass.
Look around Jack's site for more info. I'll bet you could do the same thing with a low FS 15"
Hi John,
Well my thinking on it is that obviously, the bottom ripole will get loading from the floor as well as the corner. However, since my OB's stand 7' tall, the top ripole should also get some loading from the ceiling (8' tall) as well as the corner. I think it could/should work out pretty well, but I still want input from everyone. Also, having a ripole near the ceiling I would think would help cancel out some room modes.
Two things that I'm not dead-set on yet either is the crossover point OR size of the drivers used. If I find the right ones, I might even try going with eight 18's for the ripoles! The Ushers are good down to about a solid 35Hz in these baffles. If anything, I could cross them along with the ripoles over at around 50-80Hz if need-be to keep away from ripole resonance. Nothing is set in stone yet.
I bet you guys are thinking that I'm a bit crazy, huh?! LOL
So does anyone else want to chime in on this?
Thanks!
Well my thinking on it is that obviously, the bottom ripole will get loading from the floor as well as the corner. However, since my OB's stand 7' tall, the top ripole should also get some loading from the ceiling (8' tall) as well as the corner. I think it could/should work out pretty well, but I still want input from everyone. Also, having a ripole near the ceiling I would think would help cancel out some room modes.
Two things that I'm not dead-set on yet either is the crossover point OR size of the drivers used. If I find the right ones, I might even try going with eight 18's for the ripoles! The Ushers are good down to about a solid 35Hz in these baffles. If anything, I could cross them along with the ripoles over at around 50-80Hz if need-be to keep away from ripole resonance. Nothing is set in stone yet.
I bet you guys are thinking that I'm a bit crazy, huh?! LOL
So does anyone else want to chime in on this?
Thanks!
chops said:
I just don't see the point - not in this room.
Believe me, I've run PAs with 4 18s per side in BIG rooms and never, ever ran out of bass - not even at hip-hop shows.
IMO, you'd be much better off with a tall Sonotube TTL and a low Fs driver the way that Jack Bouska does it. (He uses 2)
Jack says that most listeners complain that there is too much low end in his system. There is info down there that the producers and mastering suites never heard. Not always a good thing. Might be OK for movies, though.
panomaniac said:Hi Chops - Merry Christmas!
Things are looking good in your crazy music room.
The EQ. Yeah, I figure that as long as the math is done right in the Behringer (not a gvien) then it should not hurt the signal path at all. I would use it digital in and out. Use my own DAC at the end. Would have to use the analog in for some sources, but no worries.
Good to hear that moving the x-over point and tweaking the delay fixed your 1K peak.
As for the mic, I don't know. Turn it toward the ceiling, I guess - that's what I do. Maybe better yet, toward the sofa - it shouldn't reflect too much. What happens when the mic is pointed straight at the driver is a pressure build up in font of the mic capsule. That will give you a high end bump that depends on the size of the capsule. You can see that bump on the FR graph for the mic. Not a big deal, as long as you know it's there.
Feeling the need for big bass, are you? Not getting the kick out of Chicken Run that you should?
And, as Nullspace says "since you're a no-holds-barred kind of guy" why not try a big, folded TTL? Have a look at this monster:
http://jgbouska.tripod.com/audio/hwaudio.jpg
See the big tube in the corner? That's a 13ft folded transmission line on an 18" Altec woofer. Mega bass.
Look around Jack's site for more info. I'll bet you could do the same thing with a low FS 15"
Merry Christmas to you also!
Well if you do move back to Florida, move somewhat close to be so we can share ideas and check out eachother's stereos. There's absolutely no one around here in my area.
I'm off Friday, so I may try some different mic positions then. If anything, I can see how much of a difference it makes having the mic off axis.
"Feeling the need for big bass, are you?"...
No, not really. Like I said before, I want to do this strictly for music only, meaning I want really good quality stereo bass. Not to mention that I like to be a little different from the rest of the crowd. Ripole bass "speed" is supposed to be better than sealed or ported designs, and close to that of open baffles. Plus, because of their dipole qualities, they will have less reactions with the room like the OB's.
That TTL is way too huge for my room. In case you haven't noticed, the front of my room is already quite packed full of speakers. Besides, I'm not looking for home theater type bass output from these. That's what my sealed subwoofer is for.
panomaniac said:
I just don't see the point - not in this room.
Believe me, I've run PAs with 4 18s per side in BIG rooms and never, ever ran out of bass - not even at hip-hop shows.
IMO, you'd be much better off with a tall Sonotube TTL and a low Fs driver the way that Jack Bouska does it. (He uses 2)
Jack says that most listeners complain that there is too much low end in his system. There is info down there that the producers and mastering suites never heard. Not always a good thing. Might be OK for movies, though.
Oh I see the point quite clearly.
Remember, I listen to A LOT of pipe organ music as well as large, full orchestra music. I also like to listen to this kind of music at near actual levels. My OB's do quite well by themselves, but they could certainly use a little help when those large kettle drums and pedal notes start coming in at full force. Also, when I play Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms... Well, I'm sure you know how that album sounds.
Another thing, your PA system with its 18's were I'm sure in large, ported enclosures. Ripoles will not have that kind of output power, which is another reason for wanting to try the ripoles with highly efficient 18" drivers. I want them to go deep and loud without too much Xmax and power.
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