I would assume this driver would be great in horn designs for outdoor raves 40-80Hz. Subsonic filters a must. In that application I’m sure it would sound extremely fun and could probably reach 140dB peaks. 8 of them and you would never wonder how much SPL you need to control your breathing. Not sub but bass fun. At home not so sure, I have a feeling it would be louder outside the house as the whole house will act as a cabinet. And in any case it might be tricky to play subs with it. Xmax is bigger than magnet gap depth. Is that even possible? True subs have much deeper magnet gaps.
"Agree to disagree"? Sorry, I like to think of myself as a scientist, not one steeped in guesswork. In 1997, a Russian cosmonaut, one Vasily Tsibliev , decided that his human senses were more than sufficient to estimating spacecraft speeds & distances than a mere radar-ranger....he wound up crashing a multi-ton cargo vessel into the MIR space-station....so much for those "perfect" human perceptions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
It's a PA woofer, people. It's gonna be somewhat loud about 40Hz, and not below that. Totally fine if you want some bass in a big room or outdoors, just don't expect it to be a sub.
Also you can get any number of 18s with better specifications - power handling, Fs, sensitivity, etc. Size is definitely not everything.
Also you can get any number of 18s with better specifications - power handling, Fs, sensitivity, etc. Size is definitely not everything.
Or he asked for assistance with something beyond his field of expertise, we don't know his motivation, so that's a guess right?
But you have never heard this driver in person and the simulation doesn't show it to be a one-note driver, so that's another guess.
Third guess.
That's what makes it so odd to find you steeped in guesswork 😛
So the response drops of below 38 Hz, in a reflex enclosure tuned to 41 Hz...🙄
@Richard Ellis
You currently only act on simulated data with al its flaws. Guess people do not need to test and verify in real life, its not necessary because the relative simple simulation soeftware like WinISD tells you everything you need to know.
It seems you know how "100Hz, 50Hz, 30Hz sound like", but unfortunately there are no "pefect human perceptions" (which there aren't) so why trust solely on some software and not test and verifie in practise?
WinISD, Hornresp etc are just tools and only contribute to a solution but are not the whole solution on itself.
You currently only act on simulated data with al its flaws. Guess people do not need to test and verify in real life, its not necessary because the relative simple simulation soeftware like WinISD tells you everything you need to know.
It seems you know how "100Hz, 50Hz, 30Hz sound like", but unfortunately there are no "pefect human perceptions" (which there aren't) so why trust solely on some software and not test and verifie in practise?
WinISD, Hornresp etc are just tools and only contribute to a solution but are not the whole solution on itself.
Perhaps I may have given individuals within these forums too much credit...I was under the assumption that the vast majority of individuals here have some degree of experience, formal education...or some such professional exposure. I would think when someone is "designing" their own sub-woofer, they have some suitable knowledge to do so.
By perusing the response curves of this big 24" driver, as I suspected it has a giant DB "hump" from app. 130 hertz to 200 hertz, falling off ten plus Db on either side of the hump.
Why does the driver fall off in response when off the tuned port frequency?... Find our for yourself & get back to me...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
When you say:
That hump will disappear after a 4th order low pass at 80 Hz, as it would in a practical setting, see the HR wizard. Give it 3600 W amplifier power for 135 - 137 dB/m from 40 Hz and up in 2,0 pi (minus power compression). Tune it to 30 Hz, it can now take 2500 W and it will give 130 - 132 dB from 30 Hz and up, f3 at 27 Hz before the high pass. Put it in a solid corner for 140 - 143 dB/m from 30 Hz and up, from a single driver.
Please explain to me how that is not impressive.
It makes me think you either do not know what you're talking about or you should put things in perspective.
That hump will disappear after a 4th order low pass at 80 Hz, as it would in a practical setting, see the HR wizard. Give it 3600 W amplifier power for 135 - 137 dB/m from 40 Hz and up in 2,0 pi (minus power compression). Tune it to 30 Hz, it can now take 2500 W and it will give 130 - 132 dB from 30 Hz and up, f3 at 27 Hz before the high pass. Put it in a solid corner for 140 - 143 dB/m from 30 Hz and up, from a single driver.
Please explain to me how that is not impressive.
"Not impressive"?...because one wouldn't have nor want 3600 watts to play with, for me, there are other practical & not "over the top" choices.
This over the top example is somewhat similar to JBLs' M2 studio monitor that "requires" lots and lots of power to be "correct".
No, I'm not familiar with the Horn-response sim program.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
This over the top example is somewhat similar to JBLs' M2 studio monitor that "requires" lots and lots of power to be "correct".
No, I'm not familiar with the Horn-response sim program.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
I used a FANE Colossus 24 for ten years in 1700 liter aerated concrete bass-reflex enclosures. The bass is very nice, fast and light even at 30Hz.
I moved and still use this speaker in external 150 liter Ripole speakers. This configuration allows you to go lower than the F3 of the Loudspeaker with a speaker volume the size of its packaging box.
I moved and still use this speaker in external 150 liter Ripole speakers. This configuration allows you to go lower than the F3 of the Loudspeaker with a speaker volume the size of its packaging box.
That is some dope stuff you have there man!! What is the horn? (Right cabinet)I used a FANE Colossus 24 for ten years in 1700 liter aerated concrete bass-reflex enclosures. The bass is very nice, fast and light even at 30Hz.
I moved and still use this speaker in external 150 liter Ripole speakers. This configuration allows you to go lower than the F3 of the Loudspeaker with a speaker volume the size of its packaging box.
Horn with Neo8, it's here. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-be-used-in-a-line-array.380788/#post-6892833
Rick,
You have plenty of power and displacement to go both low and loud.
14 years ago 15Hz seemed to be your goal, is an Fb an octave above that more in line with your current thoughts?
Art
Hi,
If fb is the resonance of the box then who knows. Uncharted territory since the enclosure will be 45mm thick black American walnut, Enclosure H W D 40 35 35 inches, Reflex (a hyper large washing machine). 49,000 cubic inch, 803 Liters. If i can make an 18 Sound 12" hit hard at 30 Hz in solid Beech, 15Hz is still the goal.
The American walnut is as hard as iron, literally. and almost as heavy!
If fb is the resonance of the box then who knows. Uncharted territory since the enclosure will be 45mm thick black American walnut, Enclosure H W D 40 35 35 inches, Reflex (a hyper large washing machine). 49,000 cubic inch, 803 Liters. If i can make an 18 Sound 12" hit hard at 30 Hz in solid Beech, 15Hz is still the goal.
The American walnut is as hard as iron, literally. and almost as heavy!
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Clearly, cabinet volume depends upon your required response but I have some rules for ports which I have seen no reason to alter in 40+ years:
- Start with a port area equal to Sd and work backwards to a size which fits in the box (port can be external to box if necessary/acceptable).
- Port length should not exceed twice its diameter.
- Termination of port ends should be as similar as possible to reduce port rectification.
- Port should be singular, circular and properly flared.
Pretty wood.
Fb is the box tuning frequency, response drops off at around 24dB per octave below as the port output becomes out of phase with the driver, providing no loading and uncontrolled excursion.
If you want to "hit hard" at 15Hz with a bass reflex, the Fb will also have to be near 15Hz.
Edit: This sim's Fb is actually 16.5 Hz.
Looks like an 805 Liter (close enough to your large washing machine) cabinet using the PD 2460BR can do 120dB at 15Hz in half space, 130dB at 100Hz and still be within Xmax using 88volts, about 1060 watts into the impedance minima of 7.3 ohms. Between 30-60 Hz, the driver would only draw a fraction of that power, it should hardly get warm.
Port velocity is 18 meters per second using a 1000 square cm (150 square inch) 1.3meter (51inch) long port. The port would need to be folded or run at a diagonal to fit into your cabinet dimensions, so the exact length may be different to achieve a 16.5Hz Fb.
The smoothly rising response might look a lot different in room, and the port tube resonance at 112 Hz may not be as pronounced as the sim shows.
Art
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This may be blasphemy, but eyeing the fantastically powerful magnet and equally impressive moving mass, I would rip out the 0.4kg cone and retrofit an under-hung voice coil.
Making a new cone could range from 'basic' like folding some cardboard and gluing the seam, to something more ambitious like a clay mould for shaping some lightweight materials.
Such a make-over would probably turn it into a mid-woofer, but the sub-bass sensitivity could still be the same or even higher, it would just look bad by being overshadowed by the much higher mid-bass sensitivity. I overlaid some graphs of my old 10" home woofers against some new 12" 'pro' style mid-woofers, and the sub-bass was about the same, despite the 10's having a much lower Fs and higher mass to accentuate the bass. It just means that it needs a different filter setup.
Crazy project for sure!
Making a new cone could range from 'basic' like folding some cardboard and gluing the seam, to something more ambitious like a clay mould for shaping some lightweight materials.
Such a make-over would probably turn it into a mid-woofer, but the sub-bass sensitivity could still be the same or even higher, it would just look bad by being overshadowed by the much higher mid-bass sensitivity. I overlaid some graphs of my old 10" home woofers against some new 12" 'pro' style mid-woofers, and the sub-bass was about the same, despite the 10's having a much lower Fs and higher mass to accentuate the bass. It just means that it needs a different filter setup.
Crazy project for sure!