Think to die for is a over react but nice you can buy them locally
compared to TC9 or TG9 a bit less diameter should naturally give a bit better dispersion on cost of less area to keep up displacement number. Below comparison is based manufactures datasheet for the first three of them and for the fourth Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B data is thanks Juhazi link to HiFiCompass. The low cost for TC9 and TV transducer application stamp in datasheet is probably why many always think there is something better out there, in my view its a jewel in raw out of box its close to 10F in response domain and in impedance domain nothing looks come close, in comparison below they mirror EQ'ed flat as pancake on axis in a 20Hz-20KHz bandpass:SB10PGC21-4:
TC9FD10-08
10F8424
TEBM46C20N-4B
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I don't know if I want to chase the sparkle of a tweeter that much. I don't even want to think woofer midrange tweeter etc. I've heard a lot of tweeters in various speakers and quite frankly, lots of them add something I do not hear in real life. The Vifa ring radiators being a good exception, I like those. (probably a dispersion thing, I've liked a lot of horn top ends too)
That doesn't mean I haven't thought about tweeters, but not to 'replace something' in the top end. More in an ambience kind of way. It is also the reason why I want to "blend in" the subwoofers I have planned. So not just a crossover to subs. The one thing that stands out for me with these arrays is the seamless and effortless sound, balance is everything. (straight line FR is not right in Stereo reproduction, mono is a different story)
Not only the frequencies from bottom to top must be balanced right, even the direct sound and the answer from the room must be balanced to fit. That's where I'd consider adding something in the top end, as the full range drivers don't light up a room up top as other drivers might.
Quite a while ago I listened to my arrays on a daily basis and got to hear some good Studio speaker setup and was surprised by the high end I got to hear there. But overall it didn't even come close to 'gell' as well as the arrays, which can really get you there right at the performance.
I don't like that kind of sound.
I have heard those FR89EX drivers, after listening to it once I thought hey, that's quite nice, detailed even. Listening to it some more and my mind began to wander. For me it was the 'same sauce' poured over everything that came out of it.
It is just not my thing, I do not believe it to be a truly honest top end. It's something that might appeal to some or even a lot of people, but it isn't working for me. It's not representative of how I hear this world around me.
Listening to live (unamplified) musicians right there in the room with you is not what sounds like that to me.
I've been around that in and out my whole life. Been part of it etc.
I'll admit in a bigger or even large room with amplified music there can be a storm of sounds around you and still sound good/fitting. But even there I do not get that same kind of shimmer.
The last thing I want my speakers top end to do is mimic a 'good tweeter' as it's often said. I want the music, nothing but the music. So my speakers should mimic what I've locked away as "live music", not the stored memory of this or that tweeter etc. With the right balance out in the room all thoughts of listening to "drivers" vanishes and the music takes over...
A good top end belongs in there for sure, but I'd say there are more speakers out there that overdo that (very) top end than there are natural sounding speakers. Even a lot of dome tweeters just don't do it/cut it for me. The exceptions do exist.
Just my opinion, I mean no harm by it.
P.S. Maybe that's why I take notice if a group of people say this or that driver is boring. Quite often that actually points to good objective measurements for a driver like that and lots of potential.
The spicey drivers are for whoever is into that. The boring driver does not have to lead to boring sound, if you learn how to use it, quite the contrary actually.
I do agree upon that. Our arrays mentioned above were all 3-ways.
The "fully fullrange" have a great live sound. Others may prefer small two-way with sharp pin-point for acoustic ensembles and single vocals. Power tapered 3-ways arrays is a good thing combining the images (according to my own preference). Different views and the chase for "perfect sound" (which is not possible) make our hobby very fascinating. Having 4 x 21" woofers to join the rock bottom, I will never leave the tactile experience thaat we also can find in concerts. I did visit many, from church, street, stadion metal and so on.
The "fully fullrange" have a great live sound. Others may prefer small two-way with sharp pin-point for acoustic ensembles and single vocals. Power tapered 3-ways arrays is a good thing combining the images (according to my own preference). Different views and the chase for "perfect sound" (which is not possible) make our hobby very fascinating. Having 4 x 21" woofers to join the rock bottom, I will never leave the tactile experience thaat we also can find in concerts. I did visit many, from church, street, stadion metal and so on.
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Yes, matter of preference, nothing wrong with that.
TNT, i would start with good ribbon or amt. I would only run it from ~7khz, to spray the room where full range beams.
Recently, for different project, i used dayton amt's and hivi ribbons. Interestingly, i did not like their biggest models, since they started beaming for me too soon. Settled on second, shorter models.
TNT, i would start with good ribbon or amt. I would only run it from ~7khz, to spray the room where full range beams.
Recently, for different project, i used dayton amt's and hivi ribbons. Interestingly, i did not like their biggest models, since they started beaming for me too soon. Settled on second, shorter models.
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It woks, a lot of the line source over here utilizes a ribbon tweeter in the middle with a simple first order crossover arounf 10 KHz+, while the fuillrange drivers generally go unfiltered... is what's said....
works fine with me... a friend of mine have those, reallywell behaving speakers
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Yup, that's it, thanks haraldo and wilbur-x
wesayso, i understand what you are saying, no need to overdo it with tweeter for sake of sparkly heights drawing your attention to it...heard plenty such expensive highend speakers at audio shows
on the other hand, my personal experience with fullrange drivers and tweeter are mostly positive, it cured the beaming, and did no damage to musicality, on the contrary
Interestingly, even base guitar sounded better
anyway
wesayso, i understand what you are saying, no need to overdo it with tweeter for sake of sparkly heights drawing your attention to it...heard plenty such expensive highend speakers at audio shows
on the other hand, my personal experience with fullrange drivers and tweeter are mostly positive, it cured the beaming, and did no damage to musicality, on the contrary
Interestingly, even base guitar sounded better
anyway
Yeah.... I heard that crazy thing too... get a better tweeter and the base guitar improves, what the heck is going on here
BYRRT - I bet you are hatching on those impedance traces also
//
What about me...!!!
Well take it as a friendly hint that it means something we dont measure and also because we dont filter anything out as for multi way in one transducer cover all the audioband here, the flatter the better and also a higher nominal impedance would help but that feature belongs to past get transducers more than 8 ohms and 4 ohms really belongs to cars doesn't they
. Subjective try look up how natural bass notes resolution sounds for you in head phones 300 ohms or up compared to 32-64 ohms cans, also how bass resolution could sound natural in granny's old mono or stereo system that probably had a combination of a high impedance widebander plus a power amp which output impedance number probably was a relative high number.Below are those same four transducers in same order starting from left side focusing on frq of the resonance peak, TC9 rocks the lowest resonance and the highest HF reach by its low L(e) number and can say for wesayso's build he managed get that resonance peak down to a 12,3 ohms number probably because he is good or carefull to execute mechanic stuff.
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Yeah.... I heard that crazy thing too... get a better tweeter and the base guitar improves, what the heck is going on here
It also works the other way around. Having a good and capable low reaching bass sound, balanced out in the room does a lot for what we perceive in midrange and higher. That's why I believe balance is key.
I don't rule out I'll start playing with tweeters at some point. I've mentioned that idea a couple of times. But only to augment what I have already. It is a fine line. Coherence is what the full range arrays give you. Especially when starting with a good neutral driver. The TC9 fits that bill.
Look around at how many array builds have come to pass. How many were kept, for a longer period or even stayed/survived as the key speaker.
I know many have a hobby to try new things, make different arrangements. That's never been my goal. The arrays are my speakers. The best compromise I could come up with. All I try to do is improve them. Not because it's needed, they sound quite good. It's because I love to do it and still learn from it.
I see many debates about diffraction, 3D sound, depth etc. Get diffraction and early reflections down as far as you can, take control over the room and fight the cross talk inherent in stereo playback and you get imaging, depth 3D holographic sound and realism. That's the message from me after countless hours of tinkering. Stereo is capable of more than I could ever envision. It's like putting your 3D glasses on and then some. It's there in the recordings. But all that little stuff does matter to get it out again. I love that part, love to learn more. A union of speaker + room. Call me crazy, but for me, that's where the solution lies. Good drivers can get you there. DDR in spades
.This part here doesn't only apply to arrays. But arrays do have some sweet things going for them. Put the same amount of effort in other speaker types and you can get pretty much the same experience. Its what hits our ears that matters, but also what follows that first wave front (the room) and how/when it hits you. Plus the cross talk problem etc. It's real, as is diffraction. Take away the key things that give us the wrong hints, put the right stuff back in there instead.
Diffraction points your mind to the speaker itself (not good). Even if it doesn't upset you tonally, it does attract attention from your brain. Points you to the origin on the sound, and not the hints/clues that hide away in the recording. It will invite the band into your room, not transport you to the event. that sort of thing.
Ah.. heck... I'm just a crazy man rambling on... don't ever believe me, but try it yourself. At least you have to question me! I know I do
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Indeed it does
One signal, unedited (no crossover that break signal coherence), with less disruptive 1.reflections and attenuated flank delay make a line source a real experience
There was some info about someone who added Isopunkt (tar product) to the TC9 dustcap which helped cure some tendencies, IMO its a weight thing. The TG9 mms is higher than the TC9, which probably achieve the same thing.
At the moment the only other driver than the TC9 I'd consider for my lines, would be the TG9. Just need to derive a way to fund it
It also works the other way around. Having a good and capable low reaching bass sound, balanced out in the room does a lot for what we perceive in midrange and higher. That's why I believe balance is key.
I don't rule out I'll start playing with tweeters at some point. I've mentioned that idea a couple of times. But only to augment what I have already. It is a fine line. Coherence is what the full range arrays give you. Especially when starting with a good neutral driver. The TC9 fits that bill.
Look around at how many array builds have come to pass. How many were kept, for a longer period or even stayed/survived as the key speaker.
I know many have a hobby to try new things, make different arrangements. That's never been my goal. The arrays are my speakers. The best compromise I could come up with. All I try to do is improve them. Not because it's needed, they sound quite good. It's because I love to do it and still learn from it.
I see many debates about diffraction, 3D sound, depth etc. Get diffraction and early reflections down as far as you can, take control over the room and fight the cross talk inherent in stereo playback and you get imaging, depth 3D holographic sound and realism. That's the message from me after countless hours of tinkering. Stereo is capable of more than I could ever envision. It's like putting your 3D glasses on and then some. It's there in the recordings. But all that little stuff does matter to get it out again. I love that part, love to learn more. A union of speaker + room. Call me crazy, but for me, that's where the solution lies. Good drivers can get you there. DDR in spades
This part here doesn't only apply to arrays. But arrays do have some sweet things going for them. Put the same amount of effort in other speaker types and you can get pretty much the same experience. Its what hits our ears that matters, but also what follows that first wave front (the room) and how/when it hits you. Plus the cross talk problem etc. It's real, as is diffraction. Take away the key things that give us the wrong hints, put the right stuff back in there instead.
Diffraction points your mind to the speaker itself (not good). Even if it doesn't upset you tonally, it does attract attention from your brain. Points you to the origin on the sound, and not the hints/clues that hide away in the recording. It will invite the band into your room, not transport you to the event. that sort of thing.
Ah.. heck... I'm just a crazy man rambling on... don't ever believe me, but try it yourself. At least you have to question me! I know I do
Sorry but I have a problem to see where the compromises are in your array speakers, I started following your thread from early on and was stunned by the non-compromising construction of the cabinet, and attention to all the tiny details, when added up makes a significant upside... It seems there were nothing you did not think about!
Again, sorry... but where are the compromises?
Yeah.... I heard that crazy thing too... get a better tweeter and the base guitar improves, what the heck is going on here
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/345670-super-tweeter-noticeable-11.html#post5989835
Yes, because human can hear info above 20 Khz .....
Play a 21 Khz tone and you will NOT hear it
Play a 24 Khz tone and you will NOT hear it
Play the 21 Khz tone and at same time the 24 Khz tone and you will hear a 3 Khz subharmonic, this is demonstrable that our ear is sensitive to information above 20 Khz.
I suggest these are things you hear when you are at a classic concert, if you cut this info sharp away in a filter or by speakers that cannot reproduce the information, we lose out on information that is important to the total experience.
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