theonlyone said:
I agree. But they should also be prepared to answer technical questions and present measured data to correlate with the stroke and gushing "subjective" testimonials.
Would you feel comfortable with this vendor also moderating?
Pan said:
Some of the posters in this thread report events outside of what physics dictates.
Pan said:
Link to the measurements? Thanks.
cheers,
AJ
ShinOBIWAN said:
Me take this stuff seriously? 😉 Nah.
I just call it the way I see it. My opinion like anyone else's.
cheers,
AJ
ShinOBIWAN said:
Crossing at 1.5kHz would reduce the dynamic capabilities enormously and increase the distortion in this area. The tweeter has about 0.05% dist in the low region as used now. I have only seen measurements of one electrodynamic tweeter with similar or better performance.. and that one is not cheap..
The poor power response you mention would show up if the crossing would be lowered due to the size of the waveguide.
The 8" driver (or any other) is not an off the shelf unit from the shop at the corner. You would be surprised if you knew how much details and work that lies behind these drivers and designs.
/Peter
ShinOBIWAN said:
I would rather say his posts criticise all those little audiophile illusions in an entertaining way.
Additionally, a big part of this thread seems to be advertising from guru related persons. If the guru people would like to talk about the design process of their speakers, that would be nice, but all i hear is how great those things are supposed to play. Thats not diy, thats advertising.
Pan said:
Hi Peter
0.05%, that's pretty low for a 1" dome tweeter in a shallow waveguide. At what frequency/distance/SPL were the measurements taken? That figure is a bit meaningless without this.
Use a better tweeter or go with a 3-way design would both be valid points for successfully executing a high SPL low distortion design crossing at 1.5Khz.
BTW the Orion uses a 1" dome crossed to an 8" at 1.4Khz IIRC. Plenty of clean SPL when I heard this design last year. Also shows linkwitz knows about matching directivity of the drivers at the XO point too.
Why would it? Directivity isn't effected below the the operating range of the wave guide because it becomes transparent to the frequency wavelengths. That wave guide is too small and shallow to effectively align the DI of each driver on a per frequency basis. The best the designer could hope for is that they correlate within a certain range and crossover their. No data has been shown for offaxis/power response so until I see that I'm sceptical based on the known metrics.
Sorry but I don't buy into custom drivers being technically and sonically superior to other more commonly available drivers given that both were used in a well designed. What it does allow is specific tailoring to an application. I did this for my last design and used custom 8" and 5" from Danish company Audiotechnology - doing this didn't suddenly negate the laws of physics nor did it go beyond what is available from similarly performing drivers but it did allow the driver to be designed around the box and application rather than the other way around. That's the benefit here and not better sounding drivers in an absolutely sense.
It does sound nice saying "I use custom drivers" to folks but once you realise the reasons, its not because the drivers set new standards but instead they offer a different way of designing or getting closer to the effect your after.
MaVo said:
Actually, no. I can, for sure, understand that it looks like that... it would to me too. The truth is that most (all?) of these people except the fellow named "Guruproaudio" are members from the swedish hifi-forum Faktiskt.* This thread is mentioned in a thread there.
Faktiskt is a "sceptical" forum, much like DIYA, and a great part of it's members are also... ehm... in love with the Ino Audio speakers. Most (none?) of them, myself included, haven't heard the Guru's, but they should be more or less the same according to the designer.
There you have it. 😀
* = http://www.faktiskt.se/
ShinOBIWAN
Obviously (without mentioning more) 2.83V at 1 meter... 😉
edit: that would be 88dB or so.
Since the crossing is between 2-7 kHz (actually close to 3, and no, 2-7 should not be read as 2.7 but "between 2 and 7") and I wrote "in the low region" that would be a pointer to an octave or two up from 3k. The distortion rises to aprox. 0.1% in the upper region.
Yes that is low and what you can expect from these speakers.
//Use a better tweeter or go with a 3-way design would both be valid points for successfully executing a high SPL low distortion design crossing at 1.5Khz//
Better tweeter? What tweeter would that be? That would have to be a bigger tweeter which eventually would have worse top end response and dispersion. Ok, sure I know that it's about compromises and there's a reason for the ones choosen in these designs. Nothing is there by accident.
And if going with a three way.. what midrange driver would keep up dynamically? I don't know any midrange driver with low distortion that have really good thermal performance.
//BTW the Orion uses a 1" dome crossed to an 8" at 1.4Khz IIRC. Plenty of clean SPL when I heard this design last year. Also shows linkwitz knows about matching directivity of the drivers at the XO point too.//
I like SL's speakers a lot. I have heard several of them and they are among the best I've heard together with Guru/Ino a couple of others and some of my own creations. The 8" systems from Guru/Ino can handle a tad more than the Orion though. I think Ingvar pulse test the drivers with 10kW. These are designed for real life dynamics and in that respect most people drop their jaws when they hear these speakers with 400W or more in a good room.
//Why would it? Directivity isn't effected below the the operating range of the wave guide because it becomes transparent to the frequency wavelengths.//
I may be wrong here but at 3k and above the waveguide narows the dispersion from the tweeter so it matches the output form the 8". Down at 1-2k there would be the usual change in the frequency response (horizontal) off axis due to differences in the two drivers.
//Sorry but I don't buy into custom drivers being technically and sonically superior to other more commonly available drivers given that both were used in a well designed. //
I understand your sceptisism. It's just that this designer has put more effort into psychoacoustics and driver design than any other speaker designer I'm aware off. Of course there is no law of nature that says a custom driver being better than an off the shelf.
//What it does allow is specific tailoring to an application//
Yes, and that is one essential part of designing a system without unnecesary compromises.
//I did this for my last design and used custom 8" and 5" from Danish company Audiotechnology - //
Let's say that that level of custom is a little different from the Guru/Ino way. Guru/Ino manufactures machines/tools costing like a nice car in order to get the performance they want for the drivers. Their expertise is also hired by some of the worlds most respected loudspeaker makers and manufacturer of drivers.
//doing this didn't suddenly negate the laws of physics nor did it go beyond what is available from similarly performing drivers //
But there are no similar performing drivers in this case.
//It does sound nice saying "I use custom drivers" to folks but once you realise the reasons, its not because the drivers set new standards but instead they offer a different way of designing or getting closer to the effect your after.//
Not so. These drivers are SOTA for the type.
Or do you know of a soft dome tweeter with similar performance as the one I mentioned?
The Esotars, the Revelators and Millenium are good, only not as good.
/Peter
Obviously (without mentioning more) 2.83V at 1 meter... 😉
edit: that would be 88dB or so.
Since the crossing is between 2-7 kHz (actually close to 3, and no, 2-7 should not be read as 2.7 but "between 2 and 7") and I wrote "in the low region" that would be a pointer to an octave or two up from 3k. The distortion rises to aprox. 0.1% in the upper region.
Yes that is low and what you can expect from these speakers.
//Use a better tweeter or go with a 3-way design would both be valid points for successfully executing a high SPL low distortion design crossing at 1.5Khz//
Better tweeter? What tweeter would that be? That would have to be a bigger tweeter which eventually would have worse top end response and dispersion. Ok, sure I know that it's about compromises and there's a reason for the ones choosen in these designs. Nothing is there by accident.
And if going with a three way.. what midrange driver would keep up dynamically? I don't know any midrange driver with low distortion that have really good thermal performance.
//BTW the Orion uses a 1" dome crossed to an 8" at 1.4Khz IIRC. Plenty of clean SPL when I heard this design last year. Also shows linkwitz knows about matching directivity of the drivers at the XO point too.//
I like SL's speakers a lot. I have heard several of them and they are among the best I've heard together with Guru/Ino a couple of others and some of my own creations. The 8" systems from Guru/Ino can handle a tad more than the Orion though. I think Ingvar pulse test the drivers with 10kW. These are designed for real life dynamics and in that respect most people drop their jaws when they hear these speakers with 400W or more in a good room.
//Why would it? Directivity isn't effected below the the operating range of the wave guide because it becomes transparent to the frequency wavelengths.//
I may be wrong here but at 3k and above the waveguide narows the dispersion from the tweeter so it matches the output form the 8". Down at 1-2k there would be the usual change in the frequency response (horizontal) off axis due to differences in the two drivers.
//Sorry but I don't buy into custom drivers being technically and sonically superior to other more commonly available drivers given that both were used in a well designed. //
I understand your sceptisism. It's just that this designer has put more effort into psychoacoustics and driver design than any other speaker designer I'm aware off. Of course there is no law of nature that says a custom driver being better than an off the shelf.
//What it does allow is specific tailoring to an application//
Yes, and that is one essential part of designing a system without unnecesary compromises.
//I did this for my last design and used custom 8" and 5" from Danish company Audiotechnology - //
Let's say that that level of custom is a little different from the Guru/Ino way. Guru/Ino manufactures machines/tools costing like a nice car in order to get the performance they want for the drivers. Their expertise is also hired by some of the worlds most respected loudspeaker makers and manufacturer of drivers.
//doing this didn't suddenly negate the laws of physics nor did it go beyond what is available from similarly performing drivers //
But there are no similar performing drivers in this case.
//It does sound nice saying "I use custom drivers" to folks but once you realise the reasons, its not because the drivers set new standards but instead they offer a different way of designing or getting closer to the effect your after.//
Not so. These drivers are SOTA for the type.
Or do you know of a soft dome tweeter with similar performance as the one I mentioned?
The Esotars, the Revelators and Millenium are good, only not as good.
/Peter
I have never owned any Ino or Guru speakers* and few of us from Sweden posting in this thread have/has. We just happen to know something about these speakers that the bashing army doesn't.
*And have no plans getting any either.
/Peter
*And have no plans getting any either.
/Peter
ShinOBIWAN said:
At 88-90dB or so I measured below 1% above 26Hz. In the midband the 2nd and 3rd is between 0.03-0.3% hovering between 0.05-0.1% mostly.
At 23Hz the distortion rises to 3% and 9% for 3rd and 2nd falling down to 2% at 20Hz.
The measurement was in the nearfield (0.5-1 meter) so the response was rolling off slightly. I have seen other measurements that indicates flat extension down to 18-20Hz.
The measurment was taken with QTC1, Audiofire and ARTA in stepped sine mode.
The speakers belong to a friend and we were not that drunk performing the measurements. 😀
/Peter
Pan said:
slowly, this is getting ridiculous, with all those advertising claims. where is the connection to diy in all those posts about the impossible greatness of those speakers?
i mean, i would really like to have some insight in the design of those little world wonders, as i allways love to learn something new.
MaVo said:
Please stop insulting me with your acusations about advertising. I happen to know more about this than the bashing army and that's it.
The connection to DIY? You have to ask the thread starter about his intention with this thread. When it comes to DIY a lot can be learned from this designer and he freely share his knowledge which I am grateful for. Also some of the speakers can be bought in kit form.. you know so you kan Do It Yourself. 😉
/Peter
MaVo,
being in Germany, why don't you take a trip up to Stockholm and meet the designer in person? You can listen to the speakers and ask your questions. A demo use to take several hours due to the designers will to discuss and explain. Some will call it brainwashing (as the guy furhter up on this side) I call it passion and generosity.
/Peter
being in Germany, why don't you take a trip up to Stockholm and meet the designer in person? You can listen to the speakers and ask your questions. A demo use to take several hours due to the designers will to discuss and explain. Some will call it brainwashing (as the guy furhter up on this side) I call it passion and generosity.
/Peter
Pan said:
I dont insult people, i just ask them to explain themselves. You make claims in your posts, for example the one i quotet, in which a 2 way 8inch1inch combination with a shallow crossover is made for "real life dynamics" - which implies that it can be as loud as a real live event - and can handle 400Watts continously and 10kW spike while having distortions, which make me think of just getting an 8 inch driver instead of a big tapped horn as a subwoofer. I ask, how such things are possible, and all i get as an answer is the suspicion of beeing unfriendly.
Pan said:
It are indeed great times, where i dont have to drive several hundreds of kilometers to speak to someone. But thanks for the invitation, as sweden seems to be a nice country. And now, please stop the rhethorics and start making some sense, will you?
Pan said:
Peter, I'm going to have to call you on this and ask for evidence so we can more sensibly debate based on facts with an overall realistic view of performance.
Not calling you a liar but do think the facts you've presented are biased in the direction of your argument. Much can be said with words, more can be seen with evidence.
Since we're assessing tweeters on distortion then until I see accurate distortion data on the guru tweeter rather than claims, I'll leave that question unanswered.
I've not heard every mid out there but the ATC is a low distortion driver that I've have used in my designs.
Here's the evidence to back up that claim 😉
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Measurement conditions were semi anechoic - outside with only relevant boundary being the floor. The driver was mounted in the final enclosure(can post pics if required). Level was set at 90dB from a distance of 2m using pinknoise and an SPL meter. The distortion measurement itself is a swept sine performed with a Behringer ECM8000 microphone, RME Fireface 800 mic preamp/sound interface and ARTA software.
Real life dynamics don't come from 1" dome tweeters. They don't come from any single transducer currently available.
Are you guessing at that?
But in this context, a custom driver invariably means that the designer can load the driver to his preference, with a specific bandwidth optimisation and within a volume restriction.
This doesn't obviate any compromise met when using an off the shelf driver within its optimum application. So contrary to what your saying it isn't any less compromised than another claimed good loudspeaker design.
I'm sure Audiotechnology have tooling costs similar to what any other driver manufacturer has. But I don't have to foot the whole bill for those, its ameliorated through production quantities. With regards to end results look at the facts, I spec my own TS parameters that are built into a driver with a top end motor, basket and cone design where the research on these items has been done by experts. Ingvars result is hopefully the same as this regardless of costs or how he got their. So your point is mute. I'm not sure if your trying to impress with names, price tags and reputations but I'd say when we're talking about European transducer designers they don't come any bigger than Ejvind Skaaning. On the flip side I'm not sure who built or designed which bits on Ingvars stuff.
A drivers performance is largely application specific. You could say Ingvar' driver is the best for the use he's chosen but place that in a different application and there's very likely to be better suited drivers out there. Should you take Ingvar' custom driver in its optimum environment and a well regarded off the shelf SS in its own optimum and which is the best? Thats rhetorical but goes to show that custom is little more than a buzz word.
Accurate evidence please.
MaVo said:
Don't know if I misunderstod you but I felt insulted when you wrote that about advertisment claims;
And as a direct response to one of my posts;
Then you wrote;
After which I proposed to you to visit the designer in one of his demo rooms. After all that would be the best way to "learn something new" and to get "insight in the desing.."
As for "real life dynamics" well obviously there are a limit for any loudspeaker but that goes without saying don't you think? My point was that that these are designed to handle dynamics better than most other stuff out there. And really, many loudspeaker can handle real life dynamics, up to a certain limit of course.
I never said anything about handloing 400W continuously.. even though the bigger systems (not easily found on pictures) probably can but then wer'e talking multiple drivers of course. Then you write something that is hard to understand about 10kW. It can be read as "10kW spike without distortion" is that what you meant? That is nothig that I wrote anyway.
If you want something that outperform your horns you'd likely have to take a look at the bigger systems with bassunits to complement the 8".
It sure can be. Don't thank me though since I have nothing to do with the company or the designer.
I'm making full of sense, why don't you?
/Peter
ShinOBIWAN
Not calling me a liar?
I have nothing to proove or defend and with your attitude I have better things to do.
About "evidence".. if you do not believe my words, why would you believe a measuremetn graph? It doesn't take much brainpower to manipulate something.
Do you have good experience of relations starting out the way you do in this thread?
Well an atomic bomb would be hard to reproduce but sure there are sources that a 1" dome can handle.. not talking about a bumblebee or a fart here. One thing is sure, crossing a 1" tweeter at 1.5k will seriously degrade dynamics as comparde to crossing at 3k, not to talk about motion-induced HD and IMD.
No my point is not mute since you was comparing your picking of some parts for some variations in T/S from Skaanng with Guru/Ino R&D. Impress.. what can I impress with..? I have nothing to do with these speakers.
Rhetorical maybe, but what I've seen from the SS drivers they do not match these drivers generally. OTOH I know a designer that have swapped SS drivers to Ino drivers in a three way with great sucess. 🙂
Cusotm a buzzword.. maybe. You choosed custom drivers, Guru/Ino can not really (generally) be called custom since they are made from scratch mostly.
Nah, I have spent more time than I can afford on this.
I'm out of this now unless the discussion change direction.
/Peter
Not calling me a liar?
I have nothing to proove or defend and with your attitude I have better things to do.
About "evidence".. if you do not believe my words, why would you believe a measuremetn graph? It doesn't take much brainpower to manipulate something.
Do you have good experience of relations starting out the way you do in this thread?
Well an atomic bomb would be hard to reproduce but sure there are sources that a 1" dome can handle.. not talking about a bumblebee or a fart here. One thing is sure, crossing a 1" tweeter at 1.5k will seriously degrade dynamics as comparde to crossing at 3k, not to talk about motion-induced HD and IMD.
No my point is not mute since you was comparing your picking of some parts for some variations in T/S from Skaanng with Guru/Ino R&D. Impress.. what can I impress with..? I have nothing to do with these speakers.
Rhetorical maybe, but what I've seen from the SS drivers they do not match these drivers generally. OTOH I know a designer that have swapped SS drivers to Ino drivers in a three way with great sucess. 🙂
Cusotm a buzzword.. maybe. You choosed custom drivers, Guru/Ino can not really (generally) be called custom since they are made from scratch mostly.
Nah, I have spent more time than I can afford on this.
I'm out of this now unless the discussion change direction.
/Peter
ShinOBIWAN said:
Shin,
This is evidence that the driver has low measured single number THD and that is all (and actually even that only valid for speaker + amp combo used). As such it may actually be more misleading than helpful.
As we well know from amplifiers and work that Geddes has done, this measurement seems to have very little correlation with actual sonic performance. Since it is a loudspeaker, it in itself should be generating little higher order distortion products (the objectionable ones) so may be more representative than that for an amplifier, but in the absence of knowing the nature of the feedback execution in the amplifier, one cannot predict how much higher order stuff is being generated by the amplifier due to the back EMF the speaker is feeing into the amplifiers input stage.
Do you have any graphs of the spectrum? (this will of course be a measure of the amp + speaker* and will only be valid for the amp used)
*did you see the work done with the NAD. SE tube amp & FE208s? It showed that the combination of SE amp + speaker had lower distortion (same measure with the same caveats) than the NAD + speaker, in fact lower distortion than the speaker or SE amp measured by themselves. measured NAD distortion <<SE amp measured distortion.
dave
- Status
- Not open for further replies.