Just called in the order!
Alright guys, I just called Elma and placed the order. It will ship out either today or Monday. If you have not emailed me yet, please do so. Here is the new list and everybody who has an asterik by their name has emailed me already:
Ladder (04A2R00)
*bryman79 - 2
6H5C - 1
Praudio - 3
*pkpickard - 1
rpafenberg - 2
LastStop - 1
*ITZBITZ - 1
Chosen1 - 1
*Carrier Bag Man - 1
stadams - 1
tommak - 1
*ftjandra - 1
Topbrass - 1
*Hesky - 1
*zumac9 - 1
*hpasternack - 1
TOTAL - 20
Series (04A2A00)
Praudio - 3
BrianGT - 1
jhead - 1
Yoke - 2
SS1 - 1
TOTAL - 8
--Ferdi
Alright guys, I just called Elma and placed the order. It will ship out either today or Monday. If you have not emailed me yet, please do so. Here is the new list and everybody who has an asterik by their name has emailed me already:
Ladder (04A2R00)
*bryman79 - 2
6H5C - 1
Praudio - 3
*pkpickard - 1
rpafenberg - 2
LastStop - 1
*ITZBITZ - 1
Chosen1 - 1
*Carrier Bag Man - 1
stadams - 1
tommak - 1
*ftjandra - 1
Topbrass - 1
*Hesky - 1
*zumac9 - 1
*hpasternack - 1
TOTAL - 20
Series (04A2A00)
Praudio - 3
BrianGT - 1
jhead - 1
Yoke - 2
SS1 - 1
TOTAL - 8
--Ferdi
Re: Ferdi
Ladder (04A2R00)
*bryman79 - 2
6H5C - 1
Praudio - 4
*pkpickard - 1
rpafenberg - 2
LastStop - 1
*ITZBITZ - 1
Chosen1 - 1
*Carrier Bag Man - 1
stadams - 1
tommak - 1
*ftjandra - 1
Topbrass - 1
*Hesky - 1
*zumac9 - 1
*hpasternack - 1
TOTAL - 21
Series (04A2A00)
Praudio - 2
BrianGT - 1
jhead - 1
Yoke - 2
SS1 - 1
TOTAL - 7
--Ferdi
No Problem, Praudio.Praudio said:
Ladder (04A2R00)
*bryman79 - 2
6H5C - 1
Praudio - 4
*pkpickard - 1
rpafenberg - 2
LastStop - 1
*ITZBITZ - 1
Chosen1 - 1
*Carrier Bag Man - 1
stadams - 1
tommak - 1
*ftjandra - 1
Topbrass - 1
*Hesky - 1
*zumac9 - 1
*hpasternack - 1
TOTAL - 21
Series (04A2A00)
Praudio - 2
BrianGT - 1
jhead - 1
Yoke - 2
SS1 - 1
TOTAL - 7
--Ferdi
Hello All,
Thanks again ftjandra!!!
As far as resistors, take a look at this page for resistor values: http://www.goldpt.com/r_ladder.html. Any problems with these numbers? I haven't done any calcs, so I can't tell if this is log or linear.
I am non-gainclone, but I need a 20K. I am placing a significant Mouser order here soon, and was planning on ordering the resistors with it. They will come to something like $20, so I'm not sure if it would be worth it to even try a group order. But if someone can do significantly better than that, I would be interested.
Regards,
Bryan
Thanks again ftjandra!!!
As far as resistors, take a look at this page for resistor values: http://www.goldpt.com/r_ladder.html. Any problems with these numbers? I haven't done any calcs, so I can't tell if this is log or linear.
I am non-gainclone, but I need a 20K. I am placing a significant Mouser order here soon, and was planning on ordering the resistors with it. They will come to something like $20, so I'm not sure if it would be worth it to even try a group order. But if someone can do significantly better than that, I would be interested.
Regards,
Bryan
Goldpoint sells kits. I wonder if they would sell us just resistor packs. Even if they don't normally, they might if we approach them right. I suspect that they have them nicely packaged to make assembly easier. Also, they have them already set up for different value pots- yet we would probably pay the same for each. In opther words, if they go for the idea, it's because we are ordering a lot of stuff- not necessarily always the same value packs. So, everyone would gewt wha they want.
I am in contact with them right now and they seem very willing to do this. I am going to get prices and if they are good, we'll go from there.Variac said:
--Ferdi
I would need a kit for the series to go into a gainclone I believe the recomended overall value is 25K
vhat value would be good for X-BLS (X-BSOZ) ...on Henrik shematic it's 10K, would 25K be too much...
Aditional x bosoz question
For the normal Bosoz line source Pass recommends 5k.
I assume the "X' is different?
We should stick together 'cause I'm making the Xbosoz also.
Worst case we can order both our resisitor sets together.
To use an attenuator as a pot in the conventional way I THINK we need a pretty big switch-
For a ladder configuration we need 2 decks (poles?) for each wire we want to attenuate?
Since it is balanced, we ned to attenuate 2 wires per channel.
so for 2 channnels that means 8 decks I think.
Nelson mentioned that you can just use the attenuator or pot
between the two balanced wires on each channel.
There has been some discussion of this. One problem is that you need some resistors well under one ohm on the lower end.
But I haven't seen a table listing the values required.
I would certainly be interested in someone with info regarding the values requird to make a 10k attenuator this way.
That way we would only need 2 decks per channel for ladder config.
Here is my little bit of knowlege:
The Xsoz and SOx don't have particularly high input impedence
so it is best that the output from the preamp be as low as possible.
The Goldpoint people sell kits all the way down to 5k
If Ferdi's negociations work out, we can order what we need
(except for the special case balanced shorting one, which is probably what we need, which we would have to order ourselves.
For the normal Bosoz line source Pass recommends 5k.
I assume the "X' is different?
We should stick together 'cause I'm making the Xbosoz also.
Worst case we can order both our resisitor sets together.
To use an attenuator as a pot in the conventional way I THINK we need a pretty big switch-
For a ladder configuration we need 2 decks (poles?) for each wire we want to attenuate?
Since it is balanced, we ned to attenuate 2 wires per channel.
so for 2 channnels that means 8 decks I think.
Nelson mentioned that you can just use the attenuator or pot
between the two balanced wires on each channel.
There has been some discussion of this. One problem is that you need some resistors well under one ohm on the lower end.
But I haven't seen a table listing the values required.
I would certainly be interested in someone with info regarding the values requird to make a 10k attenuator this way.
That way we would only need 2 decks per channel for ladder config.
Here is my little bit of knowlege:
The Xsoz and SOx don't have particularly high input impedence
so it is best that the output from the preamp be as low as possible.
The Goldpoint people sell kits all the way down to 5k
If Ferdi's negociations work out, we can order what we need
(except for the special case balanced shorting one, which is probably what we need, which we would have to order ourselves.
now I'am confused...I was thinking to order 2x ladder ( 2x4 pole ) to get 8 pole...but price with resistors would be too high for me...
so I singh up fo 2 x series - one per chanel...
Did I make good choice ???
What would you sugest ???
so I singh up fo 2 x series - one per chanel...
Did I make good choice ???
What would you sugest ???
Yoke,
I am quite unsure as to the correct path also.
In my opinion you are making one of the 2 choices that we know will work.
The other choice is to get one switch with 4 poles.
This would be a lot cheaper.
I have a passive pre with 2 volume controls that I find irritating to use, with constant fiddling to get the balance right. BUT, with 2 switches, it is a lot easier to set them at the same place, so probably that would be fine.
I have a couple of 6 pole, 27 position switches. At the moment I'm thinking of using one as a lot of series switches to control up to 6 gainclones for home theater. At first, probably just control 2 channels.
The second is for the BOSOZ and that would be configured as 4 series poles for the balanced signal, as you are doing, OR: shorting between the signals, in which case I will use a 4 pole ladder setup.
At the moment, I would do as you are doing. We have the information to do the series approach, The shorting approach can be series or ladder, but the required resistors are unknown at the moment, BUT people have given some information in various threads. Maybe we can track them down. The gist of it was that some of the quieter settings are under one ohm, and that it is hard to find resistors of such low resistance. Of course they can be paralled, but that is even bulkier and more expensive.
From what I've read, the difference between a pot and a series attenuator is far greater than between a series and a ladder.
What rsisistors are you considering? I think the Vishay/Dale are the best that I can afford....
Mark
edit:
P.S. I don't think the 20k-25k would be good to use for your BOSOZ stick with a lower number.
PPS:
I assume that there isn't much preference for gainclones between 20k and 25K? Either one would work I assume.
Any opinions? Goldpoint has both....
I am quite unsure as to the correct path also.
In my opinion you are making one of the 2 choices that we know will work.
The other choice is to get one switch with 4 poles.
This would be a lot cheaper.
I have a passive pre with 2 volume controls that I find irritating to use, with constant fiddling to get the balance right. BUT, with 2 switches, it is a lot easier to set them at the same place, so probably that would be fine.
I have a couple of 6 pole, 27 position switches. At the moment I'm thinking of using one as a lot of series switches to control up to 6 gainclones for home theater. At first, probably just control 2 channels.
The second is for the BOSOZ and that would be configured as 4 series poles for the balanced signal, as you are doing, OR: shorting between the signals, in which case I will use a 4 pole ladder setup.
At the moment, I would do as you are doing. We have the information to do the series approach, The shorting approach can be series or ladder, but the required resistors are unknown at the moment, BUT people have given some information in various threads. Maybe we can track them down. The gist of it was that some of the quieter settings are under one ohm, and that it is hard to find resistors of such low resistance. Of course they can be paralled, but that is even bulkier and more expensive.
From what I've read, the difference between a pot and a series attenuator is far greater than between a series and a ladder.
What rsisistors are you considering? I think the Vishay/Dale are the best that I can afford....
Mark
edit:
P.S. I don't think the 20k-25k would be good to use for your BOSOZ stick with a lower number.
PPS:
I assume that there isn't much preference for gainclones between 20k and 25K? Either one would work I assume.
Any opinions? Goldpoint has both....
I was looking at the 20k Goldpoint resistor table and noted the the "Rin" resistors in the ladder type are repeated a lot.
The 20K attenuator is the one that has the most repitition-not all do.
If this is what Peter has found a way to exploit, then we should listen to his idea. In a 20k ladder, the first 11 positions use a 20k resistor. Can 11 of the "Rin" positons be shared by one resistor?
I think these 11 pins of the switch could be connected with wire, then the resistor attached to the wire a the first terminal ,and the other resistor lead goes to input. In the case of the 20k, only 9 resistors are then required on the Rin side, for 5K only 8.
NOt only does this save money, it savea a LOT of money of you want to use Caddocks or Vishay thick film!!
Or: it allows the use of Caddocks for the price of Dales!!
AND: It will be easier to wire.
I have to think about it ......Peter, I want to hear more about this-It seems to work no differently than a regular ladder type- or am I missing something?
The 20K attenuator is the one that has the most repitition-not all do.
If this is what Peter has found a way to exploit, then we should listen to his idea. In a 20k ladder, the first 11 positions use a 20k resistor. Can 11 of the "Rin" positons be shared by one resistor?
I think these 11 pins of the switch could be connected with wire, then the resistor attached to the wire a the first terminal ,and the other resistor lead goes to input. In the case of the 20k, only 9 resistors are then required on the Rin side, for 5K only 8.
NOt only does this save money, it savea a LOT of money of you want to use Caddocks or Vishay thick film!!
Or: it allows the use of Caddocks for the price of Dales!!
AND: It will be easier to wire.
I have to think about it ......Peter, I want to hear more about this-It seems to work no differently than a regular ladder type- or am I missing something?
correct me if I'm wrong it would stand to reason then that the 1st eleven position's will not effect the attenuation if that is so then it would not begin attenuating until around 50% or 44db of rotation or according to Goldpoint info useing as a passive 34db
jhead said:
Rin doesn't change but Rg does. Check out the spreadsheet I posted earlier to see. You can also tweak your values if you want closer spacing down low compared to up high.
Hi,
If you'd limit the attenuator to just those 11 positions then yes, you could use a single resistor for Rin soldered in series with the signal path before it reaches the attenuator deck.
The single deck attenuator would then only be used to switch the shunt resistors.
One disadvantage of using lowish R values for attenuators is that you run out of choices for commercially available resistor values within the common E series.
Which also means that the total resistance value of the ladder attenuator will deviate a little from the calculated 20K (in this case) sum of Rs you'd normally have if you'd go for higher precision value Rs.
You'd find more exact values corresponding more closely to the calculated ones if you'd opt for high impedance attenuators which probably wont fit the bill in this particular application as 20K seems to be the preferred value.
Cheers,😉
If you'd limit the attenuator to just those 11 positions then yes, you could use a single resistor for Rin soldered in series with the signal path before it reaches the attenuator deck.
The single deck attenuator would then only be used to switch the shunt resistors.
One disadvantage of using lowish R values for attenuators is that you run out of choices for commercially available resistor values within the common E series.
Which also means that the total resistance value of the ladder attenuator will deviate a little from the calculated 20K (in this case) sum of Rs you'd normally have if you'd go for higher precision value Rs.
You'd find more exact values corresponding more closely to the calculated ones if you'd opt for high impedance attenuators which probably wont fit the bill in this particular application as 20K seems to be the preferred value.
Cheers,😉
Frank, thanks for your confirmation.
Although I wasn't proposing that, probably just using the first eleven positions would work for most people!
So 12 resistors would get us up to about "half volume"
which according to Goldpoint is about -28dB
But we should have a final resistor selection for when we want to play it really loud for a few minutes to "impress" our guests.😉 I think zero attenuation is probably too much even for that!
BUT seriously, I was still suggesting using a 2 deck switch, but on one deck to use a single 20.0k resistor hooked to the 11 first positions, then use a single 18.2K resistor hooked to the next 4 positions, etc. The other deck has the conventional values to ground. One advantage of this is that the 20k and 18.2 k resistors could be $10 items so for the first 15 clicks, you are sending the signal through only the premium resistors. There seems to be a general opinion around here that the shunt to ground resistors don't affect the sound as much as the series resistors.
JHead, I believe ITXBITZ is correct, there are the resistors to ground still which DO change, and I was still planning to use them.
If you read further in the Goldpoint tables there is a final table which mentions the "Goldpoint Taper" This shows that the values are definately a log type curve- in fact, that is why there are so many resistors of the same value- the first positions don't have as much attenuation between them.
OK, maybe this isn't a huge savings, but If I'm (and Peter Daniels if he was saying this) right, instead of requiring 46 resistors per channel for a conventional ladder , we are talking 32. AND the first positions which are used the most, are the best positions if 2 good resistors are used for all of the first 15 Rin positions.
Although I wasn't proposing that, probably just using the first eleven positions would work for most people!
So 12 resistors would get us up to about "half volume"
which according to Goldpoint is about -28dB
But we should have a final resistor selection for when we want to play it really loud for a few minutes to "impress" our guests.😉 I think zero attenuation is probably too much even for that!
BUT seriously, I was still suggesting using a 2 deck switch, but on one deck to use a single 20.0k resistor hooked to the 11 first positions, then use a single 18.2K resistor hooked to the next 4 positions, etc. The other deck has the conventional values to ground. One advantage of this is that the 20k and 18.2 k resistors could be $10 items so for the first 15 clicks, you are sending the signal through only the premium resistors. There seems to be a general opinion around here that the shunt to ground resistors don't affect the sound as much as the series resistors.
JHead, I believe ITXBITZ is correct, there are the resistors to ground still which DO change, and I was still planning to use them.
If you read further in the Goldpoint tables there is a final table which mentions the "Goldpoint Taper" This shows that the values are definately a log type curve- in fact, that is why there are so many resistors of the same value- the first positions don't have as much attenuation between them.
OK, maybe this isn't a huge savings, but If I'm (and Peter Daniels if he was saying this) right, instead of requiring 46 resistors per channel for a conventional ladder , we are talking 32. AND the first positions which are used the most, are the best positions if 2 good resistors are used for all of the first 15 Rin positions.
Variac said:
Vishay/Dale is fine for me...some time I go crazy so maybe I buy caddock...but I think that Vishay/Dale are fine...
Isn't there possibility to mechanicali connect two attenuator...Elma offer 2 pole ,4 pole 8 pole and they are oll the sime ... just add more poles on central bar ( I'am not good in english so I hope you understand what I mean ) ... I will try to make something to connect them , not to rotate one then another...
Yup, there are various ways to connect them. I will find a thread about this, unless you find them first!! Probably would have nbeen cheaper to order asingle 8 deck though...
OK I'm still thinking about what Frank said.
With a single deck switch and a single series resistor we could get -28dB and a desireable curve according to Goldpoint.
So that means if I have 93dB/watt speakers and a 32watt/ch gainclone then:
Theoretically max volume would be 108db with no attenuation?
Then the attenuator would allow steady state output of
108-28= 80dB? hmmm doesn't seem all that loud, or am I wrong? Maybe there could be 2 ranges if we need more.....
OK I'm still thinking about what Frank said.
With a single deck switch and a single series resistor we could get -28dB and a desireable curve according to Goldpoint.
So that means if I have 93dB/watt speakers and a 32watt/ch gainclone then:
Theoretically max volume would be 108db with no attenuation?
Then the attenuator would allow steady state output of
108-28= 80dB? hmmm doesn't seem all that loud, or am I wrong? Maybe there could be 2 ranges if we need more.....
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