Zaph just posted his test result of the new non-shielded version of the TB W5-704. It turns out that there's virtually no difference in the frequency response beween the old 704S and the new 704D.
So, you can now be more cofident of using any of the 2.5-way crossover designs posted in this thread (three designs for TB 25-1166, Vifa D26NC55, and D27TG-05 tweeters).
So, you can now be more cofident of using any of the 2.5-way crossover designs posted in this thread (three designs for TB 25-1166, Vifa D26NC55, and D27TG-05 tweeters).
Jay_WJ said:
I'm so tired I can't remember if I asked already ~ which program did you use to do the modeling? Is that Speaker Workshop? Would you mind sharing the data files for the W5-704 projects?
edit: I looked now I remember, you use FRD Tools "The Passive Crossover Designer" spreadsheet for the FR charts...
This "Buyout" deal at P.E. :
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-164
( 6.5" Alesis Carbon Fiber woofer )
Has a decent X-max : 5mm, decently small VAS: .6 l, ok low FS: 47 Hz, and decent sensitivity: 88 db
To be the bottom half of something that would be in-between a 3-way and a 2.5-way matched with a Tang Band W5-704D mid and tweeter of your choice...
It's not a subwoofer, and it's not very big ~ but ~ none-the-less I think it is very well suited for this application - pending testing. I ordered some and hope to try them out next weekend.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-164
( 6.5" Alesis Carbon Fiber woofer )
Has a decent X-max : 5mm, decently small VAS: .6 l, ok low FS: 47 Hz, and decent sensitivity: 88 db
To be the bottom half of something that would be in-between a 3-way and a 2.5-way matched with a Tang Band W5-704D mid and tweeter of your choice...
It's not a subwoofer, and it's not very big ~ but ~ none-the-less I think it is very well suited for this application - pending testing. I ordered some and hope to try them out next weekend.
I've "almost" finished two pairs of "test" cabinets. One vented, one sealed. Using 3/4" MDF for these.
My friend from work is building a pair of "Aethers" with my help using my shop, we'll have to get the PC measurement setup and working soon because they're almost done and we need to tweak the crossovers.
Once we've got it all worked out anf figured out, then, I'll also go ahead and measure the two sets of Tangband W5-704 speakers also - with and without Mark's mods.
I've got some of the cheap ND20FB 3/4" Parts Express tweeters sitting in a box waiting to go into those cabinets, may need some more crossover parts, but, I do have plenty of assorted small poly caps so I can at least do the design that mark propses here: http://madspeaker.com/extras/704CROSS.PDF
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1504982#post1504982
To email me the best addres is critofur at yahoo dot com
My friend from work is building a pair of "Aethers" with my help using my shop, we'll have to get the PC measurement setup and working soon because they're almost done and we need to tweak the crossovers.
Once we've got it all worked out anf figured out, then, I'll also go ahead and measure the two sets of Tangband W5-704 speakers also - with and without Mark's mods.
I've got some of the cheap ND20FB 3/4" Parts Express tweeters sitting in a box waiting to go into those cabinets, may need some more crossover parts, but, I do have plenty of assorted small poly caps so I can at least do the design that mark propses here: http://madspeaker.com/extras/704CROSS.PDF
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1504982#post1504982
To email me the best addres is critofur at yahoo dot com
critofur said:
I have no doubt that this design sounds good to the designer's ear. But I'm curious about some aspects of this design. First, where is BSC unless it's meant to be used in a wall? Adding a BSC circuit on the woofer will mess up the intended phase property. It will be better to add a BSC circuit before the system. Second, the design will be sensitive to listening axes due to the midwoofer's beaming. The crossover point is very high. The W5-704 is used virtually as a full range driver. I know every design is a result of compromise. But I'd choose better off-axis performance rather than inaudible minimal phase rotation.
-jAy
Jay,
I believe he intends not to add BSC. Mark in particular does seem to be interested in speaker designs which are either wall mounted, or, in very shallow and broad enclosures which can resemble large picture frames, and, which have artwork printed on the "grill cloth". ( see here: http://www.madspeaker.com/page08.html )
Every speaker is a compromise, let's ignore designs that are just downright bad, for now, for the sake of discussion, and consider that each speaker that might be considered excellent by some group of people will have it's own set of trade offs. Different people will be more or less sensitive to specific compromises.
I immediately thought "oh, that woofer will be beaming the high frequency" when I looked at his proposed two way design myself. But, I think I want to listen to it anyway because it's not often you find a speaker design which can actually work ok with the entire crossover consisting of only one capacitor. I can think some of applications.
I'll be making some "bass bins" with a pair of 6.5" woofers in each, I imagine those could handle the BSC well? Their 88db sensitivity and I'll use them in parallel. Hopefully my amp (Onky TX-DS787) is comfortable with the just under 4 Ohm impedance, if not, I'll have to build something like the 41hz.com "Amp 9 Basic" which is good down to 2 Ohms running off 12V DC.
I believe he intends not to add BSC. Mark in particular does seem to be interested in speaker designs which are either wall mounted, or, in very shallow and broad enclosures which can resemble large picture frames, and, which have artwork printed on the "grill cloth". ( see here: http://www.madspeaker.com/page08.html )
Every speaker is a compromise, let's ignore designs that are just downright bad, for now, for the sake of discussion, and consider that each speaker that might be considered excellent by some group of people will have it's own set of trade offs. Different people will be more or less sensitive to specific compromises.
I immediately thought "oh, that woofer will be beaming the high frequency" when I looked at his proposed two way design myself. But, I think I want to listen to it anyway because it's not often you find a speaker design which can actually work ok with the entire crossover consisting of only one capacitor. I can think some of applications.
I'll be making some "bass bins" with a pair of 6.5" woofers in each, I imagine those could handle the BSC well? Their 88db sensitivity and I'll use them in parallel. Hopefully my amp (Onky TX-DS787) is comfortable with the just under 4 Ohm impedance, if not, I'll have to build something like the 41hz.com "Amp 9 Basic" which is good down to 2 Ohms running off 12V DC.
I'm telling ya, man, it's just not gonna cut it in terms of low end extension. In fact, I don't think it would go much lower than the TB W5-704D. I have the Alesis M1 Active MKII, and with room help, they don't give much below about 45 Hz. If you want great bass in a small box, it's hard to beat the Dayton DC160--which, with room help can get you 30 Hz. You can FEEL that! Some guys will tell you the DA175, but it needs a bigger box to hit the low notes. Otherwise, one of the small TB subs are excellent (W5-1138SM or W6-1139SI).critofur said:
-Paul
Oh ~ I happen to have a case of 6 of the W6-1139s ~ but... their sensitivity is SOOOO low, I didn't see making them work passively?
I just downloaded the LspCAD Lite Demo - and wow, it is SOOO easy
to use compared to my previous attempts at using (just about all the) different speaker CAD programs. There are just a few key steps at the beginning that are so not intuitive, once you get past that the program is fun. Not that I've figured out how to get the optimization to work yet 
It's nice to get to 30hz or lower, but, if a speaker does down to 40 - 50 hz well, it can sound very good, IMHO.
I had a pair of Ohm Acoustics Walsh 5s for a couple years, and those speakers went down to almost 20hz with authority. They also played louder than "concert level" volumes in my medium sized room (I never tried to see "how loud" they could play, "Reference Level" on my receiver was enough, for me). In front of those big Walsh 5s, I had a pair of diminutive little Micro Walshes, each having merely a little 5.25" paper driver, and I found their bass to be satisfying with most music (surprising as it may be). However, I did use a subwoofer whenever watching DVDs, and sometimes with music. I found that I needed to have the sub's woofer facing me for it to integrate well/sound good.
So... We've built a pair of bass bins w/the 8" buyout paper cone woofers; will build a pair with 2 ea of the Alesis 6.5" woofers, and, in the end, may go so far as to build bass bins with 2 ea RS-270s (though, that might be a tad large). I'll have to think about how I might use the Tang Band W6-1139 subs...
I may go ahead and build a pair of bass bins with the woofer you used in the Aethers also.
EDIT:
I just downloaded the LspCAD Lite Demo - and wow, it is SOOO easy
to use compared to my previous attempts at using (just about all the) different speaker CAD programs. There are just a few key steps at the beginning that are so not intuitive, once you get past that the program is fun. Not that I've figured out how to get the optimization to work yet It's nice to get to 30hz or lower, but, if a speaker does down to 40 - 50 hz well, it can sound very good, IMHO.
I had a pair of Ohm Acoustics Walsh 5s for a couple years, and those speakers went down to almost 20hz with authority. They also played louder than "concert level" volumes in my medium sized room (I never tried to see "how loud" they could play, "Reference Level" on my receiver was enough, for me). In front of those big Walsh 5s, I had a pair of diminutive little Micro Walshes, each having merely a little 5.25" paper driver, and I found their bass to be satisfying with most music (surprising as it may be). However, I did use a subwoofer whenever watching DVDs, and sometimes with music. I found that I needed to have the sub's woofer facing me for it to integrate well/sound good.
So... We've built a pair of bass bins w/the 8" buyout paper cone woofers; will build a pair with 2 ea of the Alesis 6.5" woofers, and, in the end, may go so far as to build bass bins with 2 ea RS-270s (though, that might be a tad large). I'll have to think about how I might use the Tang Band W6-1139 subs...
I may go ahead and build a pair of bass bins with the woofer you used in the Aethers also.
EDIT:
Now hold on a minute here ~ with the Alesis woofer you get 3 x the power handling, 47 vs 55 Hz fs, almost double the excursion, AND more surface area. There's gonna be a substantial amount of potential bass difference. Not to mention, you don't want to be pushing the 704s to x-max while they're doing midrange duty, do you? We want beautiful clean mid output!Undefinition said:
Jay_WJ said:
Ok,
What changes (significant I am sure) need to be made to this if I make 2 for the surrounds as an MT? I am not sure, but I am thinking that no bsc is needed because these are likely to be pinned up against a back wall that is 45 degrees to the listening area. (I live in an old Victorian home btw, in case you were wondering) So, along with less important program material being fed to them, they will be in a pretty poor listening location.
I am going to PE tomorrow morning, if possible, and have little time to research a design for the crossover. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I will be using the same drivers as is discussed in the quote, just not in an MTM.
Jon
Sad to say but not yet, I have either had time or money, neither at the same time
I now have enough put away to get the parts for the crossover you designed for me, thanks again btw.
I am excited to get started. That rotten Critofur keeps stringing me along with hints @ a collaboration of some sort
I will be sure to update you when I get them built.
I am not asking for a redesign here, just wondering if I would have to make many changes to your crossover design if I were to use 4 of the tangbands in the mains instead of 2, and would I get much of a useful gain if I were to do so? I will have 2 extra since I am not gonna do mtm's for the surrounds.
Jon
I now have enough put away to get the parts for the crossover you designed for me, thanks again btw.
I am excited to get started. That rotten Critofur keeps stringing me along with hints @ a collaboration of some sort
I will be sure to update you when I get them built.
I am not asking for a redesign here, just wondering if I would have to make many changes to your crossover design if I were to use 4 of the tangbands in the mains instead of 2, and would I get much of a useful gain if I were to do so? I will have 2 extra since I am not gonna do mtm's for the surrounds.
Jon
Rather than using any more of the W5s in the main drivers, I would crossover to (a) subwoofer(s), or, build a "bass bin" instead of a speaker stand with something like the RS225, or the Dayton SD215:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-480
Perhaps with this matching PR:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-492
I do recommend reduced BSC for the surrounds, and possibly even mounting them on their sides so they face away from you somewhat for a more difuse sound on the surrounds. (Well, TRY that before you go making holes in the side of the speaker, see which way sounds better w/movies)
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-480
Perhaps with this matching PR:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-492
I do recommend reduced BSC for the surrounds, and possibly even mounting them on their sides so they face away from you somewhat for a more difuse sound on the surrounds. (Well, TRY that before you go making holes in the side of the speaker, see which way sounds better w/movies)
critofur said:
Hey Crit.
Thanks, I will be building a sub with 2 older series 2 woofers, so I will have the low end covered. Did you and your friend ever finish any of the projects with this woofer?
Another thing; did you ever try that glue and plug mod that guy (marc?) was touting? I would like to try it, but only if it would work if applied to the back of the driver. These are nice looking woofers, would hate to muck them up with that ugly mod
Jon
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