Not sure how you could miss the well intended pieces of advice from classicalfan, myself and others. A lot of people here spent years (and more than $4k) on a journey of self-discovery so to speak when it comes to what is possible in terms of sound reproduction and what one may enjoy (like I mentioned the personal expectations evolve over time with more experiences). You may want to also read up on T. Gravesens' website, check on the shootouts between direct radiator and CD+WG speakers mentioned in some threads here and also listen to Geddes speakers if you are bent on such a type of speaker.
the beauty about DIY is exactly the fact that there are no limits, commercial constraints, consumer preferences etc. and the hobby can attract people as qualified as any a designer in the industry.
like Dave said: you have a lot to learn. People here have heard a lot of speakers and some have made quite a few too.
Having said that: if you are bent on purchasing those JBL monitors please by all means. Everyone should start some place.
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To be fair, I ignore you every time you say that so I can understand your frustration.
Of course. If I have a medical problem I don't seek advice from Toole and Olive. They're not that kind of doctor. Their expertise is limited to audio reproduction with specialization in loudspeakers in residential environments.
Absolutely. That's why I'm picky about who I learn from. When guys on internet forums claim they know more than the recognized subject matter experts I sort of tune them out.
Hey, did you know the JBL 305/708P and Geddes Summa use waveguides to control different radiation patterns in pursuit of opposing goals? I ask because you said, "check on the shootouts between direct radiator and CD+WG speakers mentioned in some threads here and also listen to Geddes speakers if you are bent on such a type of speaker".
Your statement makes me question if you know why things were designed the way they were.
Believe me I'm not frustrated. But I am puzzled by why you keep posting here, since you have so little in common with the purpose and member's interests of this DIY forum.
Just for your edification, since you seem to be missing the point, DIY stands for Do It Yourself. Not for Buy It From A Store.
I think it's much more likely that you are frustrated, since you appear to be gaining little, if any, tracking with your non-DIY ideas.
It appears that very few people here agree with or even care about what you have to say. Maybe that's because you are in the wrong place.
Sometimes DIY is build it from a kit or ready made design, not much difference than buying it from a store.
I thought the idea of DIY with a ready made design (and maybe kit) is to build speakers cheaper than a big manufacturer would be able to sell it. One part is lots of heavy material (i.e. MDF) which can be bought locally instead of shipped all over the world. And the building process is still enough work to have this "I build this myself" feeling.
How many DIY speaker designers are able to design something better than ready made DIY designs which are tested and improved over several generations?
Yes, it might be cheaper although big manufacturers can make stuff cheaply, and you could give it a custom finish.
A bit more honesty about the pros and cons of DIY might have made a better case.
Claims that one can DIY speakers for 10% the price of commercial ones are common and, if I recall correctly, have been made in this thread. For commercial speakers intended to have a good technical performance (many aren't) this is only true within pretty narrow limits. The speaker needs to be a top of the range prestige model to command a high price but of conventional design and manufacture. For example, a well respected speaker like the Sony SS-AR1 could be matched by a knowledgeable DIYer for 10% of the commercial price. Of course one can also find one or two mass produced commercial examples with pretty close technical performance around 10% of the price. Given decent technical performance 10% of the price only stands a chance of holding against high priced low volume prestige models. Of course this places no value on the prestige aspect or the massively different resale prices.
If we consider a speaker like the JBL 305p which is competently designed, mass produced 2 way with a waveguide, active crossover, power amplifiers, port, cabinet, etc... for £110 each a DIYer cannot purchase the parts for anything like this price. DIY cannot compete on performance for the price with well designed, aggressively priced, mass produced commercial budget speakers. One needs other reasons to DIY budget 2 ways.
If we consider a speaker like the JBL 708p of similar design but larger and using better though not premium/prestige components for nearly £2000 each then DIY can be technically competitive for the price. Indeed if size is not a strongly weighted requirement a well designed econowave 2 way speaker with a large woofer in a sealed rather than ported cabinet at 25% the price (e.g. the Asathor currently being discussed) may be superior when the relative advantages and disadvantages are summed. For a similar price a well designed 3 or 4 way should be superior though again at the cost of a possibly modest increase in size. Bettering good commercial reference designs like the JBL 708p or Neumann KH 420 is part of the fun and challenge of DIY. It is not straightforward and many DIY designs fall short but it is achievable.
Coming back to the start of this thread how to Danny's speaker, i.e. the NX-Studio compare to commercial and other DIY speakers?
NX-Studio
I had taken it as a given that most DIY folk here would recognise post #52 as a bit of provocation. My concern was that the refutation by several people here was not wholly balanced and honest. Speakers from the main pro speaker companies like Neumann, Genelec and to some extent JBL are well designed and implemented and sold at prices without the luxury goods premium of home audio speakers. Only a few DIY designs compete in terms of high technical performance for modest to reasonable prices.
Many of the non-budget DIY designs adopt currently fashionable extremely expensive components and place them in cabinets with excessively braced and thick walls with inadequate damping, poorly placed internal damping, very expensive passive crossovers with boutique components, modest attention to radiation patterns, inadequate cone area for clean transients at standard levels, etc... Exchanging technical/engineering performance for higher audiophile credibility is of course perfectly fine in a hobby but it is almost never expressed like this and it confuses many without the knowledge to understand what is important in determining technical performance, what is less so and what is all but irrelevant.
Comparing DIY speakers against a reference professional monitor like the Neumann KH 420 with a flat on-axis response, smooth and controlled directivity and sufficient size to cleanly reproduce transients at typical listening distances in the home is an excellent way to judge relative sound quality if the main objective is technical performance rather than, say, audiophile attractiveness. The latter is a perfectly valid objective but premium studio monitors are not an appropriate reference. I am not sure what is other than how oneself and peers respond.
There are insufficient details present at the end of that link to comment in any meaningful way. It may be an OK design for what it is or it may be poor. Who knows.
DR has been around for a long time and I doubt anybody with a modest or better knowledge of speaker design takes much notice of what he has to say. His objective is to enthuse and sell to people that know little about audio and speaker design. My advice would be to look to more trustworthy people with better technical knowledge who are not also involved in promoting and selling snake oil products (note I am not classifying the speaker you linked to as snake oil). The problem is that people pushing snake oil have demonstrated a willingness to be dishonest by misleading and likely lying in pursuit of high profit margins. How trustworthy are they likely be when it comes to other products?
Edgar77,
Here's a review of a DIY speaker that measures well:
Selah Audio Purezza Bookshelf Speaker Review
Video review also available:
Selah Audio Purezza Bookshelf Speaker Review - YouTube
Subjective impressions are positive from Erin.
It is available as a kit for DIY builders, and also available fully built.
Here's a review of a DIY speaker that measures well:
Selah Audio Purezza Bookshelf Speaker Review
Video review also available:
Selah Audio Purezza Bookshelf Speaker Review - YouTube
Subjective impressions are positive from Erin.
It is available as a kit for DIY builders, and also available fully built.
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On that note, could someone please point out some good resources for a noob who wants to dip their toes in DIY speaker building? The basic design principles and considerations, understanding what affects the sound the most etc. I, for example, understand I cannot build a good speaker, but I want to reproduce one of the existing designs and am looking for information that could help me judge which designs are better (both in general and for my personal use case).
I've just recently found Dennie Ritchie's channel and enjoyed binge-watching quite a few of his videos. He touches on many interesting technical and physical aspects and design considerations of speaker building, although he often left me wanting for a more in-depth explanation. But recently I've come across his videos on cables and immediately my BS meter hit the red zone.
The responses to my question here should tell you all you need to know Measurements and review of the X-LS Encore kit by www.audiosciencereview.com
Your primary concern is how to judge a design to determine which designs are better so the best book in that regard is Floyd Toole, Sound Reproduction, latest edition. And you want to focus on the Sean Olive chapters because that specifically addresses your goal. There are also additional sources that will give you a common language most DIYers are familiar with and that are referenced frequently.
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reprod...ef=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1615049972
Earl Geddes' books. Earl Geddes frequently posts in this forum and is good at explaining things.
GedLee LLC
And the Linkwitz Lab web site.
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
All three sources are in basic agreement but each emphasizes different types of sound field radiation patterns in small rooms (homes). Floyd Toole's book has sections that cite both Geddes and Linkwitz as subject matter experts. Toole cites additional SMEs and research. In other words, Toole teaches you where and how to look for good information.
There are also people in this forum who worked at speaker companies who offer insight into why a manufacturer does something. Those are helpful because DIYers sometimes look at commercial products and think there's strange magic going on with some obscure thing and then a person who worked at a company will come along and say something like, "oh no, we did that because it was easier to stack the baffles with the drivers that way when we left them on the tables overnight." Which, you know, pulls your head out of the clouds pretty fast.
There are also guys here who write modeling software that does stuff that was impossible in the past. You can access them by getting into their forum threads.
I like to recommend Toole first because he explains crowd pleasing designs which gives you a foundation to work your way into the specialty designs. Starting with the specialty designs tends to lead to a lot of confusion.
bradleypnw, thank you very much for your thoughtful answer. I've got the Floyd Toole's manuscript (an e-book), at 490 pages it's not a brief read - it's great to know which chapters to focus on first.
Man, contributions of ceiling reflections will be impacted by frequency. We can't locate on the vertical plane until higher frequencies (starting a little before the 7kHz range) and the Geddes waveguide controls those frequencies.
Earl Geddes, rightfully, talks a lot about psychoacoustics and the relevance to his designs. So if a commercial seller attacks Geddes' design on a physical aspect without addressing the psychoacoustic aspect it doesn't reflect well on them. And why is he even taking a shot at Geddes when the relevant context was full speaker measurements? That's the kind of slimy tactic I would expect from a snake oil salesman.
We also typically discount our labour (my partner use dto keep busy building things to keep himself sane), ignore all the tools and bits we have bought to make things (it is a hobby) and certainly less shipping, smaller shiping boxes, on & on, there are huge savings to be had.
I would expect our best speaker design to go head-to-head with speakers that are $20k in the shops. Ask quattrofish how much it cost to make his (even when he had to buy an extra woofer in the end). Something on the order of a grand.
And it is only one among many designs available to the diyer who just want sto build something already proven. The hard part is choosing the one that best suits your needs. And all to often you don’t really start to get a handle on your needs until you are thru a couple builds.
dave