Hi,
I have decided that I want to look more into getting an old turntable to restore rather than buy new.
Part of this reason is because of the fact that, from what I understand, I can get better results for the same money. I may even save a little.
The other reason is because I love to work on things that I own and know the intricate workings of them. This ranges from computers to cars and I plan to start building my own speakers too.
Now that obviously wouldn't be the case if I were to get a Garrard 301 unless I found someone who didnt know what they had. However, I understand that Thorens TD mk. II can be had for a reasonable price and be restored to be a very nice performer. Especially if I make my own plinth for it.
However, I do not know many other TT that are worth restoring and wanted to know what others though may be worth my efforts.
Thanks for any input.
I have decided that I want to look more into getting an old turntable to restore rather than buy new.
Part of this reason is because of the fact that, from what I understand, I can get better results for the same money. I may even save a little.
The other reason is because I love to work on things that I own and know the intricate workings of them. This ranges from computers to cars and I plan to start building my own speakers too.
Now that obviously wouldn't be the case if I were to get a Garrard 301 unless I found someone who didnt know what they had. However, I understand that Thorens TD mk. II can be had for a reasonable price and be restored to be a very nice performer. Especially if I make my own plinth for it.
However, I do not know many other TT that are worth restoring and wanted to know what others though may be worth my efforts.
Thanks for any input.
indeed, look at lenco heaven.
Lenco L75, 70's 88, 99, 76,... all the heavy platter lenco's are good for DIY'ing and restoring. I've had lots of fun with them myself too...
Lenco L75, 70's 88, 99, 76,... all the heavy platter lenco's are good for DIY'ing and restoring. I've had lots of fun with them myself too...
Any direct-drive sidesteps the belt hassles, now and in the future. Denon in particular. The Technics will always hold value because they were the DJ standard. Any Rabco or harman-kardon Rabco, if you like straight-trackers. Some of the B&O, now that you can get a new stylus from the aftermarket again.
Hey great! Those lencos look like they might be an even better option as they don't have Garrard fan following that demands the 5k price point
the cheapest alternative to all these tables...
...are the changers from some of the "big" names (Garrard, Dual, Cobramatic, etc...).
Gut the changer stuff and convert to a manual turntable. Toss the arm and put something modern on it or do a really good job on an arm restoration. Make sure upgrade the tonearm wiring if re-using an old arm.
Garrard Lab60 turntables are cheap, but have the big Lab series induction motors.
Ofr go find a Lenco and do "all the mods". Everytime that I have sought out a Lenco I find out that the going price was beyond my budget.
...are the changers from some of the "big" names (Garrard, Dual, Cobramatic, etc...).
Gut the changer stuff and convert to a manual turntable. Toss the arm and put something modern on it or do a really good job on an arm restoration. Make sure upgrade the tonearm wiring if re-using an old arm.
Garrard Lab60 turntables are cheap, but have the big Lab series induction motors.
Ofr go find a Lenco and do "all the mods". Everytime that I have sought out a Lenco I find out that the going price was beyond my budget.
How about an AR? The best suspension of any turntable I've owned, although I did fit it with a low mass DIY arm. The stock arm may be perfectly adequate, but I wanted some luxuries like hydraulic cueing and antiskate. I believe there's various parts available to hotrod them. Not the most user-friendly if you play records that spin at speeds other than 33 rpm; changing speed means lifting off the platter and moving the belt to a different level on the motor pulley.
The better Duals are good. The AR is a great platform to start with, but IMO it takes a lot of DIY skill to put a decent arm on it. If you can find an old Rek-O-Kut, they have a super platter and Pabst motor. If you just want a good performing direct drive, needing only cleaning and such, the Sony PS-T33 and similar do very well and shouldn't go for much. The Thorens, Lencos, early pro Garrard and other popular DIY upgrade tables have been rising in price because so many people know about them now. I wouldn't mess with the consumer grade Garrards, BIC or other changers.
I remember the 5-pound oak 2X4 arm on my uncle's old Rek-O-Kut. Looked cool, didn't work all that great.
But from my experience with most of the older stuff the rubber idler drives or belts were rumbly, the platters light, arms heavy. The AR is simple, but it looks like a kid's record player; with a decent arm I guess it's OK. I had a lot of Phillips dc-servo belt turntables like the 212, but why mess with belts? A nice Denon, Technics, Sony, or Pioneer direct-drive with a decent arm would suit me.
But from my experience with most of the older stuff the rubber idler drives or belts were rumbly, the platters light, arms heavy. The AR is simple, but it looks like a kid's record player; with a decent arm I guess it's OK. I had a lot of Phillips dc-servo belt turntables like the 212, but why mess with belts? A nice Denon, Technics, Sony, or Pioneer direct-drive with a decent arm would suit me.
Got to agree with cyclecamper where getting started is concerned. The arms aren't great; check for play before you buy on the run of the mill pieces.
also makes you feel less bad when you gut the thing and cut it up to make something completely else and awesome of it...
prices are rising fast though in the USA, they won't get near the Garrard 301 price point, but the times that you could easily pick up a perfectly good Lenco for 50 are ending (even here in europe, where they could almost be used to pave the streets with...)
Have fun 🙂
Keep them spinning,
Bert.
ditto the Lenco suggestion.
I converted one about a year ago and it's a very good performer. One thing I would recommend is a replacement bearing, the improvement is significant. More details on the Lenco Heaven site whilst my work can be seen here - http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5379.0
Regards,
Karl
I converted one about a year ago and it's a very good performer. One thing I would recommend is a replacement bearing, the improvement is significant. More details on the Lenco Heaven site whilst my work can be seen here - http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5379.0
Regards,
Karl
fasterbyelan,
I actually showed my wife your turntable last night following an original L75 image and explainng that over the years I can go from the original to what you did possibly.
Granted it will take me much longer to get there than a few weeks as I do not have tons of time to work on it at this time and I am currently in pursuit of a different career which just takes more of my time.
However, being about to buy a TT for about 200-300 dollars and then eventually have it perform so well that I wont need to get anything else is very attractive. Especially considering the fact that I was originally intending get a Rega RP1 and this seems like a better option as the performance will surpass it eventually.
I actually showed my wife your turntable last night following an original L75 image and explainng that over the years I can go from the original to what you did possibly.
Granted it will take me much longer to get there than a few weeks as I do not have tons of time to work on it at this time and I am currently in pursuit of a different career which just takes more of my time.
However, being about to buy a TT for about 200-300 dollars and then eventually have it perform so well that I wont need to get anything else is very attractive. Especially considering the fact that I was originally intending get a Rega RP1 and this seems like a better option as the performance will surpass it eventually.
of Duals and Garrards...
...and others too.
My suggestion for yarding apart an old changer is in direct response to the increased costs of the "BIG" tables out there:
I would start with as inexpensive a table as possible (as long as not one of those absolutely terrible plastic POS tables that are out there), that is from a quality manufacturer who have made great tables. That is why I spoke of the Garrard Lab60 (or Lab80) and the Dual 12XX series idlers. They can be had anywhere for(almost) pennies. With just a little bit of work, a silk purse can be made out of a sow's ear. This follows Jean Nantais' original idea of making a "Home Depot" turntable. He didn't suggest everyone go out and buy a Lenco heavyweight, that is just what he chose to work with. He also stated in an email to me that he thought the Miracord 40H turntable was very good as well with better bearings than the Lencos...
Again, so many options. Once you try modifying/restoring an inexpensive turntable, then you can look at all the options and decide for yourself if you want to go ahead with one of the "BIG" tables out there. Just be aware many of the Big 'uns can cost Big Piles of cash, just to get hold of, and then to restore.
A thought: a relatively modern table that can be had for (not) much money is the Thorens TD160, preferably one with a metal sub-platter. The arms can be rewired, the bearings adjusted, and a new plinth built. Motor rebuild kits arre available (as well as similar new motors) and belts can be had. Plinth ate fairly easy to make, and you can end up with a superior sounding table for not much money. Check out the analog dept here for some good ideas regarding Thorens (and other) belt drive types.
...and others too.
My suggestion for yarding apart an old changer is in direct response to the increased costs of the "BIG" tables out there:
- the Garrard 301/401 tables
- the Thorens TD124 and 125 tables
- the Dual 1229 and similar higher level Dual single plays
- the Lenco "heavyweights"
- the Russco/broadcast tables
- the "big " Technics (SP10, SP15, SP25, etc)
- Kenwood/Trio
- Yamaha
- Denon
- Micro-Seiki
- AR
- Linn
- Ariston
- Heybrook
- Dunlop/Systemdek
I would start with as inexpensive a table as possible (as long as not one of those absolutely terrible plastic POS tables that are out there), that is from a quality manufacturer who have made great tables. That is why I spoke of the Garrard Lab60 (or Lab80) and the Dual 12XX series idlers. They can be had anywhere for(almost) pennies. With just a little bit of work, a silk purse can be made out of a sow's ear. This follows Jean Nantais' original idea of making a "Home Depot" turntable. He didn't suggest everyone go out and buy a Lenco heavyweight, that is just what he chose to work with. He also stated in an email to me that he thought the Miracord 40H turntable was very good as well with better bearings than the Lencos...
Again, so many options. Once you try modifying/restoring an inexpensive turntable, then you can look at all the options and decide for yourself if you want to go ahead with one of the "BIG" tables out there. Just be aware many of the Big 'uns can cost Big Piles of cash, just to get hold of, and then to restore.
A thought: a relatively modern table that can be had for (not) much money is the Thorens TD160, preferably one with a metal sub-platter. The arms can be rewired, the bearings adjusted, and a new plinth built. Motor rebuild kits arre available (as well as similar new motors) and belts can be had. Plinth ate fairly easy to make, and you can end up with a superior sounding table for not much money. Check out the analog dept here for some good ideas regarding Thorens (and other) belt drive types.
Nanook,
You, my friend, seem to be a wealth of information!
I have looked at the Miracord 40h that you mentioned as well as the dual 1229 and they do look like a very nice place to start. Especially considering the fact that they do not start at the $200 price point and then have modifications to do ontop of that! Which makes them much more attractive to me so that I can infact afford to get the table and still do some work on it.
However, I have read alot that what makes the Lenco, Garrard, and Td-124 is the fact that their motors are so massive for them. Is this the same case for most of the idler drive turtables that you listed above?
You, my friend, seem to be a wealth of information!
I have looked at the Miracord 40h that you mentioned as well as the dual 1229 and they do look like a very nice place to start. Especially considering the fact that they do not start at the $200 price point and then have modifications to do ontop of that! Which makes them much more attractive to me so that I can infact afford to get the table and still do some work on it.
However, I have read alot that what makes the Lenco, Garrard, and Td-124 is the fact that their motors are so massive for them. Is this the same case for most of the idler drive turtables that you listed above?
idler drive motors...
..are often of the "induction" type and are physically quite large, although the "BIG" tables often have a motor with higher torque (and may be larger yet again), and thus are able to maintain inertia in the platter system easier.
The Lab60 motor is smaller than one in a Lab80...the Dual motor is smaller than either. This is not as bad as it may seem, because the fixed motor speed may be higher, thus having a mechanical advantage if much smaller than the driven (through the idler wheel) spot on the platter. Also, if a lower voltage is used the motor's torque increases (if AC induction type of motor) while the speed remains constant. This is one of the reasons I suspect that there are many folks out there driving Airpax (as in Linn, Ariston, Rega, etc) motors with a lower voltage power supply (such as the Naim Armageddon used o the Linn LP12).
I've taken a picture of a Lab60 motor (well the complete underside of the Lab60 turntables) with a small geometry set plastic square for scale and will post it on photobucket or similar. I'll post a link as soon as I can upload the image. These motors are not small compared to the Hurst motors (used in the AR tables) or the Airpax/Thompson types (as used in the Linn "type" tables).
I think if you pull a decent idler apart and convert it to full manual operation, you will get a taste of how good these can sound. A garbage Dual 1216 (gutted)/my own "219" tonearm/Grado sig8 easily challenged my Oracle Alex Mk II/SME 309/Grado sig8 combination and my friend's Roksan Xerxes/ RB250 (with Michelle counterweight, VTA nut adjuster, and diy Teflon/silver arm rewire)/Ortofon MC3Turbo combination. In some ways the Dual 1216/219/Grado sig8 is better, but I haven't had enough people hear my arm or compare it to others be completely convinced. I can say that it does run easily in the same league as the two commercial offerings.
..are often of the "induction" type and are physically quite large, although the "BIG" tables often have a motor with higher torque (and may be larger yet again), and thus are able to maintain inertia in the platter system easier.
The Lab60 motor is smaller than one in a Lab80...the Dual motor is smaller than either. This is not as bad as it may seem, because the fixed motor speed may be higher, thus having a mechanical advantage if much smaller than the driven (through the idler wheel) spot on the platter. Also, if a lower voltage is used the motor's torque increases (if AC induction type of motor) while the speed remains constant. This is one of the reasons I suspect that there are many folks out there driving Airpax (as in Linn, Ariston, Rega, etc) motors with a lower voltage power supply (such as the Naim Armageddon used o the Linn LP12).
I've taken a picture of a Lab60 motor (well the complete underside of the Lab60 turntables) with a small geometry set plastic square for scale and will post it on photobucket or similar. I'll post a link as soon as I can upload the image. These motors are not small compared to the Hurst motors (used in the AR tables) or the Airpax/Thompson types (as used in the Linn "type" tables).
I think if you pull a decent idler apart and convert it to full manual operation, you will get a taste of how good these can sound. A garbage Dual 1216 (gutted)/my own "219" tonearm/Grado sig8 easily challenged my Oracle Alex Mk II/SME 309/Grado sig8 combination and my friend's Roksan Xerxes/ RB250 (with Michelle counterweight, VTA nut adjuster, and diy Teflon/silver arm rewire)/Ortofon MC3Turbo combination. In some ways the Dual 1216/219/Grado sig8 is better, but I haven't had enough people hear my arm or compare it to others be completely convinced. I can say that it does run easily in the same league as the two commercial offerings.
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translation: Bigger is not always better ladies!
as I said before I do not know much about turntables everyone's help here is truely appreciated.
I look forward to your pictuers Nanook and I should have thought earlier that they could be geared differently so that the motor size does not matter as much....being someone who loves cars you would think that that would occur to me....but it didn't.
Learn something every day.
a Miracord looks particularly like it could make a really nice project!
as I said before I do not know much about turntables everyone's help here is truely appreciated.
I look forward to your pictuers Nanook and I should have thought earlier that they could be geared differently so that the motor size does not matter as much....being someone who loves cars you would think that that would occur to me....but it didn't.
Learn something every day.
a Miracord looks particularly like it could make a really nice project!
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