I’ve never had a part kick back and fly through the air in 20+ years of using a table saw, and that’s 12 years of daily use. I practice the “maximum grip” technique whenever hand feeding materials into an exposed blade. Hand grip strength begins to fall off after age 27, however.
We had what is known as a “Hot dog saw” to prevent the various engineers who had access to our shop from removing any digits.
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I have a bosch table saw at home that works well for what I need here anyways, the rest of the time the worm drive skilsaw works. The one pair of speakers I have made were done using the skillsaw and a guide, no table saw.
We had what is known as a “Hot dog saw” to prevent the various engineers who had access to our shop from removing any digits.
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I have a bosch table saw at home that works well for what I need here anyways, the rest of the time the worm drive skilsaw works. The one pair of speakers I have made were done using the skillsaw and a guide, no table saw.
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A good Unisaw can be equipped to safely do anything a SawStop can other than stop when your finger touches the blade. Kickbacks usually result from poor adjustment of saw geometry (fence to blade), lack of antikickback splitters or pawls and most frequently inadequate stock preparation. I'd never try to rip a workpiece on the table saw that wasn't jointed flat and square on the fence edge first. For me the greatly preferred ripping tool for most workpieces is the bandsaw as you can stop at any point mid-rip without any ill effects as the blade imparts no forces that can launch the workpiece.
Well in my 60+ years of using table saws, kickback can occur when the fence is either parallel to the blade or even slightly tilted in. It can also happen when cutting hardwood and hitting a soft spot on the top of the wood followed by a hard spot on the bottom usually found in wild grain wood. The most common cause is in wood that when cut shifts closed due to the strong wild grain. (That is why there are NOW riving knifes. Required first in the U.K. 2008! U.S.A 2009) White oak is more prone to this than any other very common wood.
One of the annual insurance inspectors mentioned he has never seen the anti-kickback pawls in use in any shop he has inspected. My experience was that the Delta Unisaw ones caused jams often enough they were more dangerous than any kickback.
The other issue related to kickback is of course motor power keeps increasing. Current saw is 240 volts 3 phase with a 30 amp circuit breaker. As it is a moving table version with two cutting blades and a riving knife kickback is not much of an issue. One always stands to the side of this saw by design. If it kicked a piece, a bit of a chance it would go through you.
I don't think you could hold a board against a high powered saw's kickback, you would probably break bones.
Now I don't think I have ever seen kick back on plywood. Pretty much strong wild grain dense hardwoods only.
(P.S. I have changed bearings on my table saws five times, kind of tells you the frequency of usage.)
P.P.S I have a worm drive Skill hand circular saw and don't use it. I consider it too dangerous.
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I would add that the blades and bits used in any power tool MUST be sharp and in undamaged condition.
Mike
Okay, I'll 'fess up: I own a SawStop cabinet saw. It cost me a small fortune. It is massive. It lustily eats through wood with grace and precision. If it were the Cookie Monster, the Keebler Elves would flee in terror, only to return to a barren, crumbless stump. It's a wonderful tool.
Has it made me a better woodworker? No. Has it made me a safer woodworker? You bet. That's because the best tool any of us own is the one between our ears. Precision and safety go hand-in hand.
Kevinahcc20, Simon7000 and Michael Bean are all absolutely correct. The SawStop is a well-engineered tool that is safe if used within its limits. All it does is combine a new technology (the "stop" cartridge) with just about every safety feature available in the better makes. Abuse it and it will eat you alive just like any other table saw - with ruthless, relentless efficiency. A SawStop table saw is to be treated with no less respect than any other.
I harbor no illusions regarding its ability to stop and retract a blade dead mid-cut as it is a last-resort safety device. Period. It only protects you when you've been a bit absentminded during an otherwise normal, controlled cut. What it won't protect you from are acts of extreme idiocy. One scenario that springs to mind is one in which the operator lurches into an exposed blade when forcing material through a cut using a push stick. In that case I just can't imagine the blade being stopped in time to prevent any major tissue damage.
Where I'm going with all of this is that you don't have to own a "Cadillac" saw like this to get professional results. What you do need however is a "mind over matter" attitude in purchasing, using and maintaining such a tool. Even a good portable contractor's saw will yield excellent results if used correctly.
Whatever your saw, the best investment you can make is a sled. This is absolutely essential to achieving a good, square cut. To build a good one will cost you less than $30 USD and maybe half a day's work, but the rewards will far outstrip your effort if done correctly. A simple web search will yield a boatload of options; I personally use one like William Ng describes on his YouTube channel.
To achieve a perfect miter, go forth and get thee a Wixey angle gauge. Just do it. The cool thing is that you aren't limited to just 90 and 45 degrees. Building a pair of Metronomes and need 88.35 degrees for that compound miter? Done! Want to get really kinky and glue up a 5-species 35-section blank to turn a set of horns? No problemo! Your biggest problem is going to be cleaning up all that glue.
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A cheaper and safer option is a track saw, with some parallel guides for repeat cuts. Check out Peter Millard's track saw workshop series on youtube. Even a budget saw can have good results when the blade and guide rail are incrementally upgraded.
Mr. Z,
Agree with everything you said, the thread started with a search for a low cost option and that makes it tough for SawStop, but if I were starting over again I'd seriously consider one. I've been pretty lucky in 40+ years of woodworking but I do have a finger that's about 1/8" shorter after an inattentive pass on a jointer. Eternal vigilance is the only solution when working with tools that chew flesh and bone about as effectively as wood.
Agree with everything you said, the thread started with a search for a low cost option and that makes it tough for SawStop, but if I were starting over again I'd seriously consider one. I've been pretty lucky in 40+ years of woodworking but I do have a finger that's about 1/8" shorter after an inattentive pass on a jointer. Eternal vigilance is the only solution when working with tools that chew flesh and bone about as effectively as wood.
My grandpa had his thumb and index finger shortened on one hand while using a shaper, maybe seeing the results of that as a youngster has ingrained a deeper sense of the real risks involved with machinery.
Also the table saw in our high school wood shop had a metal roll-up door behind it, and was peppered with dents from accidents.
My experience working on table saws was mostly using manufactured sheet materials, no use of raw wood with varying structure, maybe that explains my having never dealt with kickbacks.
A sled should be a mandatory accessory for sure! Makes the smaller pieces that can be hard to hold onto a breeze.
Nothing cheap about the Sawstop, just mentioned it as the topic of safety was being discussed.
Also the table saw in our high school wood shop had a metal roll-up door behind it, and was peppered with dents from accidents.
My experience working on table saws was mostly using manufactured sheet materials, no use of raw wood with varying structure, maybe that explains my having never dealt with kickbacks.
A sled should be a mandatory accessory for sure! Makes the smaller pieces that can be hard to hold onto a breeze.
Nothing cheap about the Sawstop, just mentioned it as the topic of safety was being discussed.
A sled is probably the best add ons to a fixed table saw ever.
I have been using my Felder moving table saw now for more than 15 years. Nice to be able to cut the wood precisely and keep those precious body parts intact! With the power of the saw. The size of the blade, the high speed and a sharp blade one is always aware that it can take off a limb in the actual blink of an eye!
Well beyond the budget of most folks, but worth every bit to me for the improved safety.
K 940 S panel saw - FELDER woodworking machines
I have been using my Felder moving table saw now for more than 15 years. Nice to be able to cut the wood precisely and keep those precious body parts intact! With the power of the saw. The size of the blade, the high speed and a sharp blade one is always aware that it can take off a limb in the actual blink of an eye!
Well beyond the budget of most folks, but worth every bit to me for the improved safety.
K 940 S panel saw - FELDER woodworking machines
You can't win that fight.
Anybody here ever worked with horses? A horse's one-leg kick will break your body.
These saws are HORSEPOWER machines. Even a $99 half-horse cheapie will deliver a Whole Horse long enough to hurt you. The thermal cut-out takes seconds to trip. One saw in this thread is fused at 10 HP, but the accident is done before even small breakers start to warm up.
I have a feeling that if you were to watch a kickback event in slow motion that there would have been a light touch used, or an opportunity presented for the reaction to have occurred.
The reason the sled works so well is that it provides a more stable reaction against the potential movement from such an event than a hand or fingers.
This is obvious once some time is spent on milling machines and the quality of the fixturing becomes more apparent.
Is similar to the way many react to a car beginning to oversteer, and they back off the throttle.
It doesn’t help when the pitch is typically huge on a table saw blade, a blade with more teeth would make that much safer. I’m sure that certain organic shapes and densities will provide the perfect storm and allow for a rough time.
My personal favorite is when someone uses the blade dedicated to aluminum and certain plastics to cut plywood. The glue residue heats up the plastic and it explodes.
The reason the sled works so well is that it provides a more stable reaction against the potential movement from such an event than a hand or fingers.
This is obvious once some time is spent on milling machines and the quality of the fixturing becomes more apparent.
Is similar to the way many react to a car beginning to oversteer, and they back off the throttle.
It doesn’t help when the pitch is typically huge on a table saw blade, a blade with more teeth would make that much safer. I’m sure that certain organic shapes and densities will provide the perfect storm and allow for a rough time.
My personal favorite is when someone uses the blade dedicated to aluminum and certain plastics to cut plywood. The glue residue heats up the plastic and it explodes.
My moving table saw with dual blades and riving knife, as far as I know, has never had a kickback event. Touch has nothing to do with it. In proper use the is a top dust guard that also keeps the board down on the table.
The most common cause is the cut gap closing and touching the back of the saw blade. The front edge of the blade is going down. It is the back edge that goes up and can toss the board.
Small pieces are best done on a band saw. Very small pieces on a scroll saw! Amazingly I have five motorized saws in my shop! (Also two CNC routers!!!)
Next we can discuss how to clean saw blades. After trying all sorts of methods including ones from not quite helpful internet suggestions, the best method I have found is to use a lye (sodium hydroxide) based spray oven cleaner. A blade out of the machine is placed on paper and sprayed with the cleaner. In a few minutes all the goop will wipe right off. If a second application is required you need to clean your blades more often.
Now there is humor here if you know how lye is produced!
The most common cause is the cut gap closing and touching the back of the saw blade. The front edge of the blade is going down. It is the back edge that goes up and can toss the board.
Small pieces are best done on a band saw. Very small pieces on a scroll saw! Amazingly I have five motorized saws in my shop! (Also two CNC routers!!!)
Next we can discuss how to clean saw blades. After trying all sorts of methods including ones from not quite helpful internet suggestions, the best method I have found is to use a lye (sodium hydroxide) based spray oven cleaner. A blade out of the machine is placed on paper and sprayed with the cleaner. In a few minutes all the goop will wipe right off. If a second application is required you need to clean your blades more often.
Now there is humor here if you know how lye is produced!
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Yes and yes.
Bosch 4000 series is a good saw:
-fence is fast and easy adjustable
-has soft start and brake
-relatively small and compact compared to other saws
-overall solid build quality with adequate motor
It has some serious design flaws:
-fence can be set inaccurate (not parallel)
-brushes get contaminated with dust
-motor shaft mount will wear out overtime and so will the lift mechanism introducing vibrations to the blade
-dust collection is less than adequate.
The last point is disqualifying if you plan on working in tight space where you cut assemble and finish.
For this reason the top of the line Dewalt is a better option:
-fence is more accurate
-dust collection is very good
-has a little better rip capacity
-same footprint and weight
Dewalt is less "beefy" (wheels , handles etc) but does the job better and cleaner. Price wise both machines are the same. I don't care about gravity rise stands , we use the scissor stands which are easier to store and move and provide the same stability.
If you step up to cabinet saw, they are much better but at least double the price, heavy and might require 220v. Some of them suffer from inadequate dust collection and need large vacuum for dust control.
You can work with sheetgoods and hardwoods on a Dewalt Or Bosch as long as you invest the time to make a flat outfeed and side tables and a crosscut sled (youtube has videos how to make and check a crosscut sled). No consumer circular saw will ever be able to achieve the flexibility, accuracy, speed and repeatability of a table saw for the kind of work you do.
I also concur with the sawstop /bosch gts saw recommendation with rapid stop. They are double the price but for the safety factor they are priceless.
I would not recommend buying used Contractor saw. Used cabinet saws however, like Unisaw are better quality and more durable and might be still good after many years.
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I have added the Micro Jig splitters to my Delta saw and they are quite effective at eliminating pinch-out kickbacks. There are two splitter fins installed with a supplied jig so that the front one is even with the fence side of the blade and the back one with the outside of the blade. Used in a zero clearance insert they greatly reduce the risks of rip cuts.
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