what might work in minimal bulk to get nice solid drumkit sound without resorting to bulk of horns? will some larger woofer with Linkwitz transform get the kickdrum?
how large of a midrange direct radiator does it take to get some snare snap?
ideally the speaker would be acceptable on all music genre.
how large of a midrange direct radiator does it take to get some snare snap?
ideally the speaker would be acceptable on all music genre.
I always think that kickdrum sounds best on sealed cabs, they don't even have to be so large as too much real sub just muddies things up, something that rolls off at around 50 Hz would probably sound better on kickdrum than a cab with extension to say 35Hz. For that reason I wouldn't think a LW transform to be necessary. On the other hand you say minimal bulk so depending on size of venue it's unlikely you'll get levels required qithout a fair few boxes.
Maybe one or two biggish 15/18" horns stacked would do it for you..like I said, depends on size of crowd as to how much of x cab you'll need.
Maybe one or two biggish 15/18" horns stacked would do it for you..like I said, depends on size of crowd as to how much of x cab you'll need.
it would be for home use - I have Karlson couplers but would like to have something different for a change.
Sealed can kick well, but they do really suck up the power.
(perhaps even more than theory suggests)
(perhaps even more than theory suggests)
Folks seem to think that since the cab is rolling off the low end it's not using much power, but if it's getting a high amplitude signal the driver is trying to reproduce it against a high box compliance, heating up the VC, which draws more current, etc., etc.. I^2T rules until the amp starts clipping or the VC blows open.
jethdub said:
Quite true, but a surprising number of folks believe 'rumble' filters are only required on vented alignments or that room gain will compensate enough to make it a moot point.
Anyway, back on topic, 'Pi Align' alignments for traditional mid-bass horn apps do drums better than K-15s IMO, but the drivers aren't cheap.
Hi GM,
Is Pi-align some kind of vented box? What makes it special?
And it's "corner horn" looks not much more than a vented enclosure facing walls.
That 14pages of paper (with lots of math) is hard to digest for me😱
Is Pi-align some kind of vented box? What makes it special?
And it's "corner horn" looks not much more than a vented enclosure facing walls.
That 14pages of paper (with lots of math) is hard to digest for me😱
Right, it's just a very basic corner loaded big vent reflex (BVR) style BLH.
Yes, Wayne chose to put a name on what some call a prosound alignment which maximizes vent action, i.e. the vent is low Q (broadband), trading some LF gain BW for more power handling/driver protection along with a mid-bass emphasis to better blend to mid horns.
Here's an Altec 416-8B Pi Align:
GM
Yes, Wayne chose to put a name on what some call a prosound alignment which maximizes vent action, i.e. the vent is low Q (broadband), trading some LF gain BW for more power handling/driver protection along with a mid-bass emphasis to better blend to mid horns.
Here's an Altec 416-8B Pi Align:
GM
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GM said:
Does your statement means that building a smaller sealed box to achieve a sharper roll off in the low end is a bad way to do it ? I was thinking it was a good way to do it mechanically instead of with discrete components.
what aspect of a speaker makes drums "believable"? is it max spl? is it a specific nonlinearity in the fr. response? is it alot of radiating area? is it a certain radiation shape?
Isnt the "best" speaker for drums just the "best" speaker in everything? (criteria beeing linear frequency & phase, point source, sharp directivity, low distortion...)
Isnt the "best" speaker for drums just the "best" speaker in everything? (criteria beeing linear frequency & phase, point source, sharp directivity, low distortion...)
Don't forget the top end..!
Some fast transient ability I'm sure would help.
I've been struggling for ages to get cymbals to sound "right" - gave up on affordable tweets and ended up building some ribbons - now I'm getting somewhere.
Actually one of the most memorable drumkit performances were from some old JBL's I had years ago...
Fast tight tight tight bass (didn't go especially low), and extraordinary transients and high volume .
Triangle hit at high volume to make your eyes bleed.
JBL 2205 15'bass
2105 5" mid
+ a fabulous 2405 slot tweeter
Don't know if it was accurate , but it was a lot of fun at the time
however they had to go - too coloured in sound as my tastes matured.
Overall it was the tightness of the bass that probably left the greatest impression.
G
Some fast transient ability I'm sure would help.
I've been struggling for ages to get cymbals to sound "right" - gave up on affordable tweets and ended up building some ribbons - now I'm getting somewhere.
Actually one of the most memorable drumkit performances were from some old JBL's I had years ago...
Fast tight tight tight bass (didn't go especially low), and extraordinary transients and high volume .
Triangle hit at high volume to make your eyes bleed.
JBL 2205 15'bass
2105 5" mid
+ a fabulous 2405 slot tweeter
Don't know if it was accurate , but it was a lot of fun at the time
however they had to go - too coloured in sound as my tastes matured.
Overall it was the tightness of the bass that probably left the greatest impression.
G
Current bass Klam 'Rosie' with JBL 2226H , Eminence Hemp Lil' Buddy 10" mid and Karlson tube with Emilar EK175 triamped first order (200, 1.6K crossover points) is pretty close to REAL - I don't think this can be beat for overall size - still weighs in at around 250 lbs a channel -
Wide bandwidth transient response without compromise in compression or available power is the key - good power response helps the SHOCK and percussion
Turning the sub horn at at 50 cycles and below helps too -
Try THE SHEFFIELD LAB DRUM & TRACK DISC XRCD24 - see if your system gets the kick and snares right - the cymbals need to stay in proper perspective, a very good test for any system, most will crap out fast unless fully horn loaded, Karlsonized or uses several drivers to share the load.
Wide bandwidth transient response without compromise in compression or available power is the key - good power response helps the SHOCK and percussion
Turning the sub horn at at 50 cycles and below helps too -
Try THE SHEFFIELD LAB DRUM & TRACK DISC XRCD24 - see if your system gets the kick and snares right - the cymbals need to stay in proper perspective, a very good test for any system, most will crap out fast unless fully horn loaded, Karlsonized or uses several drivers to share the load.
JBL monitors seem to do drums well. My 4412a's, whilst pretty average in most regards, were great in reproducing drum sounds. They really captured the "CRACK" from the snare drum. I guess transient response is a big part of it. These used a 12" driver crossed over at 1k, to a 5inch midrange.
simon5 said:
It is IMO if you don't add an electrical filter to at least double the slope rate so the driver won't have to work so hard.
GM
Here is my recent cogitations on drum reproduction -
I work in a receiving room of a ware house - the dimensions are about 30' by 50' by a 15' ceiling. I recently built a Bofu BIB to entertain me there, powered by a 25W/channel Amp6 (class D).
It's loud in there, but since no one cares, I get to listen loud too. One of the things that has struck me was how good drums sounded coming out of this modest setup. They really make different drum recordings and recording styles sound different - like there is a really big, obvious difference between the Beatles and John Cougar Mellencamp. I'm especially surprised by the drums on some John Cougar stuff - they sound unusually unprocessed - upfront, but in a good, realistic sounding way, not much reverb, not much compression. I used to play and record drums, and I really like the 'dry', natural presentation.
So my guessings as to why they sounded so good: first of all, a large room, and secondly, playing the recording at a 'normal' level, as if they were actually being played in the room (loud in other words). I 'see' sound a lot like a picture or movie - the closer it is to 'life-size', the more realistic it seems. Similarly, you need a lot of space to create a soundstage that is the same size as real drum kit - hence the improvement that comes with a 30' by 50' room. You just can't jam a phantom drum kit into a small room - it needs space to develop, and not smash up against all the other instruments.
Maybe the BIB being a horn has something to do with it, I don't know - but all my other listening setups came nowhere near portraying drums well, even though they were all probably 'nicer', more costly, and higher power. The biggest difference seems to be the size of the room.
YMMV 😉
I work in a receiving room of a ware house - the dimensions are about 30' by 50' by a 15' ceiling. I recently built a Bofu BIB to entertain me there, powered by a 25W/channel Amp6 (class D).
It's loud in there, but since no one cares, I get to listen loud too. One of the things that has struck me was how good drums sounded coming out of this modest setup. They really make different drum recordings and recording styles sound different - like there is a really big, obvious difference between the Beatles and John Cougar Mellencamp. I'm especially surprised by the drums on some John Cougar stuff - they sound unusually unprocessed - upfront, but in a good, realistic sounding way, not much reverb, not much compression. I used to play and record drums, and I really like the 'dry', natural presentation.
So my guessings as to why they sounded so good: first of all, a large room, and secondly, playing the recording at a 'normal' level, as if they were actually being played in the room (loud in other words). I 'see' sound a lot like a picture or movie - the closer it is to 'life-size', the more realistic it seems. Similarly, you need a lot of space to create a soundstage that is the same size as real drum kit - hence the improvement that comes with a 30' by 50' room. You just can't jam a phantom drum kit into a small room - it needs space to develop, and not smash up against all the other instruments.
Maybe the BIB being a horn has something to do with it, I don't know - but all my other listening setups came nowhere near portraying drums well, even though they were all probably 'nicer', more costly, and higher power. The biggest difference seems to be the size of the room.
YMMV 😉
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