getting drumkit believeable - what modest approaches work?

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#42
Ahh, sorry I have no pictures and it was some time before there was anything called internet...hell, there wasnt even a mobile phone 😀

But yes, it was dipole, about 4 feet tall and 1 feet wide and true ribbon, not planar and VERY lively, too much actually - but I do have a suspicion that some of the new fullrange planars would do well...at modest levels, along with other fullrange drivers, and that I suspect is not to the liking of Freddi :hot:


How about a backloaded horn with a big PA driver:devilr: says it gets unloaded below 30hz, so maybe not so easy at all

http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=18superscooper

I maybe would suggest a couple of 15" crossed around 800hz to a mid/tweet horn
 

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#44
yeah - were ok on U baffle - 21 subjectively went "low" - got excursion related noise when pushed - insensitive in upper bass where a 12" Karlson could outpunch the 21" - I might brace those crude baffles and play with them a bit more - 21 with Qt ~1 mounted in drum shell/pipe would have to be "single-headed"... K15 aren't weak on drum
 
#46
>when I piddle on a tiny 8X20" kickdrum,
>the front head deflects momentarily
>~3/4"" or more forwards - -

Yes. And with a good kick the beater
holds the skin deflected more than just
"momentarily". Almost like acoustic DC.

>to view the difficulty plug in a
>Fender precision bass, electronic drumset,
>electric guitar and organ into a typical
>home speaker or worse a fullrange reflex
>with 2-3 watt amp and try to have a jam session.

Even a single electric guitar will crumble a 200 wpc
system with mondo 'home speakers'.
Two guitars plugged into 1 guitar amp won't even work.
For jamming, you need a separate amp/speaker for
each instrument. Which means a recording with the
instruments separate or some other means (multi midi?)
But for practical purposes ($wise and easewise(inside a room))
I would try a large array of high Q
drivers in a open back box. Fs ~60 Hz (I think this is
traditional kick drum tuning?)
Maybe 16 of the $5 - 8" Reveres / side.
 
#47
those BP102's look pretty good and ~$55- I used B102 in fake Druid and a sealed klam. hemp cone look tempting but pricey -- Revere might be fun - might take 16 to equal one Karlson 15 ? -

heres a taller coupler with 18" and like K15 quite a bit of power on drums with k-tube or Unity horn
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


those 8" Sammi are tough - I had another 6-10dB to go over whats happening with this little klam-"projector" outdoors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfE7hjQ40o

I need a good jazz drummer as room mate :^)
 
#48
I hooked up my open baffle setup back up, they are superior with a drum kit and everything else. They make the big dollar JBL 2226's woofers and Karlson Klams sound slow and fake -

Time to have an ice cold beer and come back to earth. :yes:
 
#49
hey Mag - what other open baffle woofer do you think would cook and not cost a lot? - you might put your report on Rosie flunKin' over at K-forum- is the "tube" still in action on your open baffle rig? which mids are you using?

ah - I see shred has Madison - but they're 8 ohm so rules out paralleling for my iwimpy amps- - would 4-10 per side work ok?

those used to be ~$12 - -

- any other choices which are cost effective? I could stack a 42hz qts 0.7 18" on top of the 21" but probably too tall

http://www.shredmuzic.com/category_s/47.htm

from published spec fs is nice n high

FS 65 hz
VAS .555
SD 63.61
Qts 0..867
Qes 0..915
Qms 16.35
BL 13.84
Re 6.17
Nominal Ohms 8
Le uH 362.56
Mms 53.06
X max 0.25"
X mech 0.5"
 
#50
Magnetar said:
I hooked up my open baffle setup back up, they are superior with a drum kit and everything else. They make the big dollar JBL 2226's woofers and Karlson Klams sound slow and fake -

Time to have an ice cold beer and come back to earth. :yes:
Click to expand...

I found my 12inch midwoofer and 8 inch fullrange, both on an open baffle, to be very disappointing in the "realism" aspect. but i suppose magnetars system will a different case. 🙂

is there a connection between radiating area or efficiency and realism, apart from the obvious fact that you need alot of radiating area to get loud?
 
#51
freddi said:
hey Mag - what other open baffle woofer do you think would cook and not cost a lot? - you might put your report on Rosie flunKin' over at K-forum- is the "tube" still in action on your open baffle rig? which mids are you using?

ah - I see shred has Madison - but they're 8 ohm so rules out paralleling for my iwimpy amps- - would 4-10 per side work ok?

those used to be ~$12 - -

- any other choices which are cost effective? I could stack a 42hz qts 0.7 18" on top of the 21" but probably too tall

http://www.shredmuzic.com/category_s/47.htm

from published spec fs is nice n high

FS 65 hz
VAS .555
SD 63.61
Qts 0..867
Qes 0..915
Qms 16.35
BL 13.84
Re 6.17
Nominal Ohms 8
Le uH 362.56
Mms 53.06
X max 0.25"
X mech 0.5"
Click to expand...

Fred since they don't sell the 21's anymore they probably would sell for a lot on ebay. If your really motivated to build something remember you'll need to cut a lot of holes! The smaller woofers are better. Try 10's or 12's.

AJ's 16 twelves is probably better. The Klam is way better then the JBL in a tuned reflex, it just doesn't sound as clean and 'free' in the room as the OB panels. The 'free' sound is what I hear at Severance Hall or at my local bar watching a blues band. It all seems in phase as in one whole pulse all the way down into the bass. IMHO anything in a box is inferior in this respect. The panels move more air, and don't sound as confused - it's really a lot better.

I'm using the Hemp Eminence Lil' Buddy 10 for a mid and the K Tube for treble.


MaVo said:


is there a connection between radiating area or efficiency and realism, apart from the obvious fact that you need alot of radiating area to get loud?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, you got it right! Th dipole pattern and no box resonance helps too..
 
#52
lil 'Buddy - cool !! - is it on an open baffle or tube? how/where is it rolled in? - one thing about asymmetric projector, mine sounded more tonally complex with a large starting gap - but might not be that way all the time

re:21" theres a Pyle pro lookalike but fs listed as 22

I had vertigo for a month and balance not right for 35 years plus other probs so motivation ain't great
 
#53
freddi said:
lil 'Buddy - cool !! - is it on an open baffle or tube? how/where is it rolled in? - one thing about asymmetric projector, mine sounded more tonally complex with a large starting gap - but might not be that way all the time

re:21" theres a Pyle pro lookalike but fs listed as 22

I had vertigo for a month and balance not right for 35 years plus other probs so motivation ain't great
Click to expand...

The K tube mid with the 6" driver was way too directional. The opposite of the compression driver tube? These are dipole on a flat board.

The Pyle has a smaller coil and less motor.

Don't you have some meds to help your balance?
 
#54
re:big k-tube did you get it to play well on-axis? - when I went to doc he said to tough it out and not use antihistamines like antivert - I still have some residual spin

wheres does the Buddy best roll in and out? - can it work ok passive? - i'll get one on a 21" woofer baffle
 
#55
freddi said:
re:big k-tube did you get it to play well on-axis? - when I went to doc he said to tough it out and not use antihistamines like antivert - I still have some residual spin

wheres does the Buddy best roll in and out? - can it work ok passive? - i'll get one on a 21" woofer baffle
Click to expand...


250 and 2500, first or is fine if you don't whomp on it.

So he says don't take that but has no 'treatment' or cure?
 
#57
MaVo said:

is there a connection between radiating area or efficiency and realism, apart from the obvious fact that you need alot of radiating area to get loud?
Click to expand...

No, all else being equal, it's about displacement whether a large radiating area/minimal excursion/low power or a small radiator with enough linear displacement/power handling to match it.

GM
 
#58
Brett said:

Your sig shows you using this with KHorns. Would you care to elaborate on how you do that?

I'm still tossing up whether to move my KHorns out of storage and make the new MF horn, or just build the big WMTMW system I'd planned.
Click to expand...

I hope I am answering the question you are asking. Since the Klipsh design has a sealed box behind the speaker, it can reasonably be used with voice coil (bridge) motional feedback. I suspect that only tuned enclosures are challenging for MF, but then that's most boxes today.

The main advantages of MF are in reduction of distortion and improvement in veridical cone motion (that means wayward motions of overshoot and transient generation). It is possible for frequency smoothness to get worse, but you can clean up the frequencies electronically (pretty necessary with a Klipschorn) and also correct the bass loss which is necessarily caused by MF. But then this kind of garden variety frequency loudness compensation can be done without introducing distortions because the MF is there to keep the sound clean even beyond the normal compass of the speaker system.

The K bass is deficient in bottom frequency range and smoothness. I find these are minor compared to introducing box sound and distortion and general shortcomings of low bass horsepower.

The K and other treble horns I have heard over the years, to my taste and classical music preferences, are not satisfactory. For sure, horns have their supporting theory, but only at the woofer end does a horn have a welcoming home.

The other day, I was listening to a recorded lecture. All but unintelligible... until I tried headphones. The room sure matters (a lecture re-played in your music room is like playing back in two echoing halls). I gotta laugh when people talk about realistic reproduction - an all but undefinable thing. And any way it could be defined would lead to recording in anechoic chambers and playing back on pulsiing spheres.
 
#59
Magnetar,
How do you like the Lil' Buddy? I think that is my next guitar speaker, but it seems like that huge peak would be difficult to deal with in crossover for audio?

Freddi,
Try raw ginger. Eat a piece the size of your thumb for vertigo. If that is too strong, try boiling about three times that much for maybe 3 cups of tea. I had the same problem, and none of the meds worked, only ginger.
 
#60
happy.gringo said:
Magnetar,
How do you like the Lil' Buddy? I think that is my next guitar speaker, but it seems like that huge peak would be difficult to deal with in crossover for audio?

Freddi,
Try raw ginger. Eat a piece the size of your thumb for vertigo. If that is too strong, try boiling about three times that much for maybe 3 cups of tea. I had the same problem, and none of the meds worked, only ginger.
Click to expand...

Hello,
My pair has a peak but not as bad as the graph indicates, especially off axis a little. I'm crossing over a little above the peak with an electronic crossover - I also sit below mine with the tweeter below it at ear level... For guitar I think they may be too neutral uless that's what you're looking for. The hemp cone may be the reason, dunno, but they sound more natural to me in the midrange then some big buck mid drivers real nice with strings. I have here. 25 watts of triode really lights them up, never tried to drive the bass below 150 cycles I use ten ten's on an open baffle panel for that.
 
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