Maybe you could try Lambda Apollo TD15H for the low end and cross it over to a HF horn with a good compression driver or high sensivity tweeter ?
GM said:
So, what are the most important criteria for a good drum sound, assuming one can get good drum sound even in a not perfect speaker? The majority seems to like high efficient horn systems played at real volumes.
How about some big efficient PA drivers on big open baffles? Wont go super deep - but should have great transient response! Don't know if it'll get you in the chest like a real drum kit though.
bigwill said:
You should get some tactile response using such drivers. I've noticed that you need to play things louder on the reproduction side to get the same level of tactile feedback as you'd get from the real thing. No doubt because virtually all the speakers systems I've heard aren't truly full range. The sub sonic <20hz range plays a role I think.
SamL said:
Hello, I am still experimenting - Now I am using a 15" PAS coax (2580) for an open baffle upper driver in a waveguide above 150 with a large format Emilar compression driver for treble crossed in at 1.5k first order above the Klams. It's a bit more linear and efficient. The PAS driver has a beautiful tone and rolls off nicely without an inductor or low pass. This is a BIG speaker and it sounds huge, tactile and prestigious - but it is not as bulky as fully horn loaded-
MaVo said:
Well, I thought Magnetar otherwise spelled it out pretty good, so didn't feel the need to repeat it. 😉
Let's try it this way........ regardless of how loud on average you want to listen at, you need to scale the dynamic headroom requirements, so starting at reproducing a drum kit 'live' we need to look at what that implies:
This system requires one complete front channel and kilowatts of power combined with a room either large enough or designed with the appropriate bass traps to allow a RT60 down into the LF: http://www.scrounge.org/speak/burwen/index.html From this it doesn't take a lot of knowledge to conclude that as you scale its size back the power requirement doesn't drop enough to allow the use of typical low efficiency speaker systems without audible distortion even when factoring in a second channel and some room gain.
So you pick your trade-offs to at least get the 'flavor' of 'live' and the LF power demands is usually the first to go since it takes up the most space/expensive, though not the most power as many folk's seem to believe. It's the mid-bass, lower mids that has the highest power draw due to ultra high amplitude/'fast' transients, which even then are normally highly compressed on all but the best CDs. The latter are still compressed to ~ +30 dB AFAIK due to a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that probably 99.999% of all systems in use that can fit into a typical HIFI/HT room can't reproduce this much dynamic headroom at low distortion even at typical prime-time TV playback levels, though some will argue otherwise.
Did this help?
GM
Like to pick up on GM's comments.
Yes, not possible to move enough air (or in any other way) to truly simulate anything but a glockenspiel. Except that a Klipschorn comes closer, and no other design can move anything like the air needed without heroic proportions. A Klipschorn is also a sealed box (behind the speaker) and so tightens at low frequencies - although even with sealed boxes, anything with good bass requires sharp sub-band filtering and that has to be super sharp, 48 dB/8ave, for low bass, like a woofer.
Another factor with drums is woofer transient response. This doesn't make a lot of sense as I understand theory (the mid-range handles the "transient" band of the drums), but I am certain that controlling woofer motion (again, the motion is outside the "pass band" of the woofer, so to speak), is important. Having a woofer that works well in a band much larger than the band it is responsible for, makes good sense, as it would for amps, etc.
But the real mastery of woofer transient response is through motional feedback. Some recording studio JBLs have great tight bass (not sure exactly why) but nothing touches the tightness achieved with motional feedback.
Yes, not possible to move enough air (or in any other way) to truly simulate anything but a glockenspiel. Except that a Klipschorn comes closer, and no other design can move anything like the air needed without heroic proportions. A Klipschorn is also a sealed box (behind the speaker) and so tightens at low frequencies - although even with sealed boxes, anything with good bass requires sharp sub-band filtering and that has to be super sharp, 48 dB/8ave, for low bass, like a woofer.
Another factor with drums is woofer transient response. This doesn't make a lot of sense as I understand theory (the mid-range handles the "transient" band of the drums), but I am certain that controlling woofer motion (again, the motion is outside the "pass band" of the woofer, so to speak), is important. Having a woofer that works well in a band much larger than the band it is responsible for, makes good sense, as it would for amps, etc.
But the real mastery of woofer transient response is through motional feedback. Some recording studio JBLs have great tight bass (not sure exactly why) but nothing touches the tightness achieved with motional feedback.
Using a sound level meter, I discovered that I usually listen at levels of 85db at the loudest. I still want the sound to be indistinguishable from live sound except for the loudness.
Assuming typical speaker efficiencies, I wouldn't need more than 10-20 watts, right?
Assuming typical speaker efficiencies, I wouldn't need more than 10-20 watts, right?
cuibono said:
You seem to be the only poster to mention this so far.
Room effects play a big part in muddying the impact of drums and a large room helps. For a smaller room, you can use a dipole.
Your sig shows you using this with KHorns. Would you care to elaborate on how you do that?bentoronto said:
I'm still tossing up whether to move my KHorns out of storage and make the new MF horn, or just build the big WMTMW system I'd planned.
I got very good results with drum sounds on the Hawthorne Audio Duets. Then I added a Behringer DEQ2496 into the equation, and room corrected between 40 and 315 hz and the results are amazing!
My room size is approx 12 feet by 13 feet with 8 1/2 feet ceiling and with a four four opening into the next room (of a similar size).
My room size is approx 12 feet by 13 feet with 8 1/2 feet ceiling and with a four four opening into the next room (of a similar size).
george a said:
Anyway, back on topic, I took Freddy's request to be about mid-bass/lower mids BW that he loves so much about some of the Karlson designs, but as I implied in my previous response, you're right, you can't reproduce the leading edge of a high amplitude/'fast' transient if the source/playback system doesn't have enough ~flat HF gain BW to reproduce it and one reason why that old JBL did so well.
GM
johngalt47 said:
I don't think you've ever heard a real drum kit in your room. The IMPACT and loudness IS a drum kit. I had one setup a few times. A drum can't be played at 85 db. You need at least 123 db low distortion, llow compression peaks to reproduce one.
10 to 20 watts might be enough for a compression driver tweeter - one that's 108 db with a watt at a meter, for bass think kilowatts
when I piddle on a tiny 8X20" kickdrum, the front head deflects momentarily ~3/4"" or more forwards - - to view the difficulty plug in a Fender precision bass, electronic drumset, electric guitar and organ into a typical home speaker or worse a fullrange reflex with 2-3 watt amp and try to have a jam session.
obviously you need a 20" driver with xmax~ 3/4" that will handily drive a 8" long piece of 20" pipefreddi said:
Once had a DIY bass ribbon, it reproduced drums very well, but not very loud though, more monitor like with NO impact which I admit I missed...now I have more impact but still miss that bass ribbon when listening to drums and sometimes wonder about where they might have gone 
It tells me that its not so much about bass quantity but more a question of quality...high XO point ?
It tells me that its not so much about bass quantity but more a question of quality...high XO point ?
hey hitsware - a real driver's mass would make that pipe jump-- even tho I'm old n' feeble a real drum with its light heads can produce a pretty good transient with a good pedal - maybe Magnetar whos built klam-projector has opinion of Karlson approach - I'd like to see an impedance kurve on "Rosie the klam"
here's a sealed back (3CF) klam Z loaded with moderate Q Eminence 18
here's a sealed back (3CF) klam Z loaded with moderate Q Eminence 18
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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