gedlee said:
Yeah, sorry kids 🙁
I wish you could take a ten dollar woofer and slap it on a waveguide, and get full-frequency nirvana, but it don't work that way 🙁
Without a doubt, the smartest thing to do is just save yourself a lot of heartache and buy a set of Summas. That's what I did, and I am one happy customer.
If you really want to get down to 500hz on a waveguide, it's possible, but it requires a HUMONGOUS waveguide, and a HUMONGOUSLY expensive compression driver. That's why Le'Cleach horns have $10,000 compression drivers.
If you're a REAL lunatic, their ARE a very small handful of woofers with the right set of parameters to get down to 500hz on a waveguide. They KEY is that most roll off at 500hz or so, but there are a very small handful which DON'T. I've spent years studying this, trust me...
But anyhow, just save yourself the headach and buy a Summa. Seriously.
John
I have been listening to Abbeys in my own room for the first time. They are very close to the Summa.
I have the Nueman Head right now and have been making some binaural recordings. I am very very interested to compare all of the designs to see exactly what the differences are. To my limited listening thus far the differences are quite small. It will be interesting to see if this holds up when a true one-to-one comparison can be made.
I will be posting these shortly. The headphones will be Etymotic ER-6i which I understand can be purchased at Amazon for $75, which is a great deal. The effect is quite impressive over the Etymotics, far less over normal headphones and completly wrong over loudspeakers.
I have been listening to Abbeys in my own room for the first time. They are very close to the Summa.
I have the Nueman Head right now and have been making some binaural recordings. I am very very interested to compare all of the designs to see exactly what the differences are. To my limited listening thus far the differences are quite small. It will be interesting to see if this holds up when a true one-to-one comparison can be made.
I will be posting these shortly. The headphones will be Etymotic ER-6i which I understand can be purchased at Amazon for $75, which is a great deal. The effect is quite impressive over the Etymotics, far less over normal headphones and completly wrong over loudspeakers.
Making binaural recordings is a great idea but I'm not sure if one can assess things like coloration or image width correctly due to individual HRTFs.
Best, Markus
Best, Markus
soongsc said:
I'm looking forward to your measurements and auditioning - most interested!
Patrick Bateman said:
A gross over-simplification - definitely not necessarily so – at least up from 1kHz.
Look at my current work...
gedlee said:
Its Ok when you say "its not easy" - *but*- it definitely isn't out of reach – even for noobs
😉
If you were to seriously assist / support / teach those who are after her own ideas – you should start talking about the *limits* / draw backs / trade off''s of your design choice rather than mainly focus on its superiority.
And talking form my last experience / measurements with soongsc's contour - there are even "better ones" than yours.
Your "Good" and my "Better" being heavily related on your and mine subjective decisions about what's "optimal".
🙂
Michael
Markus
There was a paper from Genelec on just this topic in the last AES. In that paper they found that corrections to the individual HRTF's could be done simply and effectively and that this yielded an almost perfect sense of realism. Without the individualization the results were less impressive, but still usable.
I do have some reservations myself based on the recordings that I have made today. I need to see if I can get them better. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe the inexpensive insert phones just aren't going to work - they might need to be equalized. Need to do some more investigation.
The one thing that comes through in this is just how critical the upper register of hearing is to imaging and coloration since below about 2 kHz there are no individual HRTF corrections and the headphones are all about the same. So its the stuff above 2 kHz that makes up the bulk of our perception of space, image and coloration. Not new to me I guess, but it does reinforce my opinion.
There was a paper from Genelec on just this topic in the last AES. In that paper they found that corrections to the individual HRTF's could be done simply and effectively and that this yielded an almost perfect sense of realism. Without the individualization the results were less impressive, but still usable.
I do have some reservations myself based on the recordings that I have made today. I need to see if I can get them better. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe the inexpensive insert phones just aren't going to work - they might need to be equalized. Need to do some more investigation.
The one thing that comes through in this is just how critical the upper register of hearing is to imaging and coloration since below about 2 kHz there are no individual HRTF corrections and the headphones are all about the same. So its the stuff above 2 kHz that makes up the bulk of our perception of space, image and coloration. Not new to me I guess, but it does reinforce my opinion.
gedlee said:
You could use the Schneider disk instead and get very good results too - like I occasionally do.
You are free to mount as good mics as you like.
Though haven't used HRTF yet
http://www.core-sound.com/jecklin/1.php
Michael
Earl,
talk to Len Moskowitz of http://www.core-sound.com. He probably might be able to bring in valuable experience data.
Best, Markus
P.S. Which paper are you referring to? Couldn't find it in the May issue.
talk to Len Moskowitz of http://www.core-sound.com. He probably might be able to bring in valuable experience data.
Best, Markus
P.S. Which paper are you referring to? Couldn't find it in the May issue.
markus76 said:
Markus
Thanks, I need to rule out all the obviuos first.
Yea, sorry, it was April, not May.
gedlee said:
Siegfried Linkwitz experimented with several earbuds. He found that most of them benefit from some EQ up high, most commonly a notch filter or two. Here's the curve he uses on the Etymotic.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
catapult said:
And what was this EQ based on? Thats the ER-4, I am using the ER-6, they will be different. I can understand the dip at 2.5 kHz but not the one at 7.5 kHz. (see http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er4-ts.aspx )
catapult said:
Siegfried Linkwitz experimented with several earbuds. He found that most of them benefit from some EQ up high, most commonly a notch filter or two. Here's the curve he uses on the Etymotic.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
That's somewhat contentious. The Etymotic people tell me that there are intentional resonances (especially the 2.5kHz one) to mimic canal resonance. I own a pair of ER6i and like them very much but I do like a notch where Dr. Linkwitz recommends.
badman said:
But "like" is not the point here is it? The idea is to get as accurate a playback of the sound of my speakers in my room as possible. Setting the EQ to what Linkwitz likes, or what you or I like, defeats the whole purpose doesn't it? Why not just Eq the whole thing to "sound great".
I was talking to the guy who owns the head and he said that the recordings are EQ'd for playback on open back circumaural electrostats. Thats going to be completely different than insert headphones. There is no doubt that they will need to be corrected for the different playback situation.
catapult said:
Siegfried Linkwitz experimented with several earbuds. He found that most of them benefit from some EQ up high, most commonly a notch filter or two. Here's the curve he uses on the Etymotic.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
Have you seen Dr Griesinger's take on headphone eq? Seems a little more elaborate:
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/binaural_hearing.ppt
Very interesting and typically Greisinger. A lot of statements based on a single personal experience. This topic was studied in depth by Claus Genuit of Head Acoustics some twenty years ago and its not really a matter of much debate anymore. Dr. Genuit showed exactly what was required EQ wise for different situations and the recordings from his Head system are amazing. Not many people have attempted to use inexpensive insert earphones for binaural recordings, but for what I want to do this is an absolute requirement. So I have to find out IF a satisfactory EQ can be obtained with insert earphones such that the spatial and tembral aspects of the recording are maintained. I know it can be done with Uber-Expensive headphones, the question is can it be done with a set costing $25 - $50?
gedlee said:
Read again Doc. It's not a preference, it's listening to sweeps and EQing for linear ones.
How well Mr. Linkwitz acheives this only he will ever know - those are his ears - but it's at least done in a reasonable manner.
Reading the page I do not believe this was the intent.
Earl, are you going to do a recording with other speakers as well? I think it would be useful to have something to compare with the recordings of your designs. I think I'd find it difficult to differentiate between the sound of the headphones and the recording of your speakers, especially with unfamiliar music.