The ex-soviet block and east asia do indeed seem to be the worst areas for fake semiconductors but I have encountered them in the retail channels in both Australia and USA.
ppl with enough xperience in parts trading knows that fakes are everywhere .
I know that - , because I make my living from repairs almost two decades .
and 95% of parts which I bought (till 3-5 yrs ago) were from western vendors ;
in last 3-5 yrs , my local vendors finds a way to trade without western middleman , and situation regarding fakes is BETTER than before , even if imports are directly from east!
judging those things based on experience with few minor GB is
if someone have doubts - ask Jaccovitty .......... chasing obsoletttties is his hobby , passion , whatever .
I know that - , because I make my living from repairs almost two decades .
and 95% of parts which I bought (till 3-5 yrs ago) were from western vendors ;
in last 3-5 yrs , my local vendors finds a way to trade without western middleman , and situation regarding fakes is BETTER than before , even if imports are directly from east!
judging those things based on experience with few minor GB is
if someone have doubts - ask Jaccovitty .......... chasing obsoletttties is his hobby , passion , whatever .
Please note that many of both the real and the fake are produced
in East Asia. Problem is that some of the worldwide suppliers are
not taking the real caerfully, or they have no ability to distinguish
them. Or, they just buy the fake for better profits.
Don't say Asian bad Western good. Are you all Western good . . . ?
Simply, I don't think so.
Your own falts some parts in GB, in my opinion.
diyAudio's own falts some parts in GB, in my opinion.
Sigh . . .
in East Asia. Problem is that some of the worldwide suppliers are
not taking the real caerfully, or they have no ability to distinguish
them. Or, they just buy the fake for better profits.
Don't say Asian bad Western good. Are you all Western good . . . ?
Simply, I don't think so.
Your own falts some parts in GB, in my opinion.
diyAudio's own falts some parts in GB, in my opinion.
Sigh . . .
As these are actually devices as such, it appears to me that those which are not what they should be were removed from boards for just that reason. It seems that they then fell into the hands of someone who is crooked in the chain of people who have handled them prior to becoming available to the GB facilitator (who should have been perhaps more suspicious than he was). There again he may well have been shown a few samples of the real McCoy.
And, if I drop by chance to the Chinese fake market,
I see only western people buying them . . . gee . . .
I see only western people buying them . . . gee . . .
> Don't say Asian bad Western good.
> Simply, I don't think so.
Spot on.
Aren't we all trying to scout the world for remaining 2SK389#s and 2SJ109's ?
I would have thought that they were manufactured by a East Asian company in East Asia ??
Wishing you all Happy New Year.
Patrick
> Simply, I don't think so.
Spot on.
Aren't we all trying to scout the world for remaining 2SK389#s and 2SJ109's ?
I would have thought that they were manufactured by a East Asian company in East Asia ??
Wishing you all Happy New Year.
Patrick
Hi,
Purely for the record, and as A'af requested this, my package of both types of devices ( J & K) arrived today.
I have checked them with a component analyser and both types are NPN dual bi-polars with HFE varying between 340 & 535.
Measuring the plastic packages with a micrometer, and inspecting them under a microscope, suggests to me that these are genuine Toshiba 'packaging', as it is not easy to *precisely* replicate such things with moulding flashes even being identical, for example.
Accordingly, my guess is that they are 're-marked' 2SC3381 'BL's for what this matters, but there is no clear evidence that any original lettering has been erased. Fakes I have seen in the past have not been so carefully replicated as these, and it is usually immediately obvious with even a casual inspection with just the naked eye.
The state of the leads is a puzzle, as several of mine are full length (compared with known genuine types), and if they had been soldered in a circuit board normally and the excess protruding lead cropped from under the PCB during production, some reduction in length would be obvious here.
Others have very irregular leads both in shape and length, and all have been liberally coated with solder, unlike 'fresh' Toshiba devices of this type.
I hope that this might help A'af when he is in contact with his suppliers, and await the outcome after 5th Jan.
Although it would have been wiser not to have distributed these devices after realising that the leads were suspect ("ugly pin"), I personally don't believe that A'af was a witting party to a scam in this case. He does apparently have a good reputation over several years as a supplier of similar parts, and if he simply wished to rip everyone off, why go to the trouble which he has in sending out all these parts to us, knowing that before long the truth would come out, anyway? He could have saved himself a lot of work, avoided obtaining any devices and international postage costs etc., and simply disappeared.
Regrettably, it is hard to see a truly happy ending for everyone involved here, and especially for A'af, but in spite of this I wish all Forum Members a Happy New Year.
Regards,
Purely for the record, and as A'af requested this, my package of both types of devices ( J & K) arrived today.
I have checked them with a component analyser and both types are NPN dual bi-polars with HFE varying between 340 & 535.
Measuring the plastic packages with a micrometer, and inspecting them under a microscope, suggests to me that these are genuine Toshiba 'packaging', as it is not easy to *precisely* replicate such things with moulding flashes even being identical, for example.
Accordingly, my guess is that they are 're-marked' 2SC3381 'BL's for what this matters, but there is no clear evidence that any original lettering has been erased. Fakes I have seen in the past have not been so carefully replicated as these, and it is usually immediately obvious with even a casual inspection with just the naked eye.
The state of the leads is a puzzle, as several of mine are full length (compared with known genuine types), and if they had been soldered in a circuit board normally and the excess protruding lead cropped from under the PCB during production, some reduction in length would be obvious here.
Others have very irregular leads both in shape and length, and all have been liberally coated with solder, unlike 'fresh' Toshiba devices of this type.
I hope that this might help A'af when he is in contact with his suppliers, and await the outcome after 5th Jan.
Although it would have been wiser not to have distributed these devices after realising that the leads were suspect ("ugly pin"), I personally don't believe that A'af was a witting party to a scam in this case. He does apparently have a good reputation over several years as a supplier of similar parts, and if he simply wished to rip everyone off, why go to the trouble which he has in sending out all these parts to us, knowing that before long the truth would come out, anyway? He could have saved himself a lot of work, avoided obtaining any devices and international postage costs etc., and simply disappeared.
Regrettably, it is hard to see a truly happy ending for everyone involved here, and especially for A'af, but in spite of this I wish all Forum Members a Happy New Year.
Regards,
IF all parts are like mine, then these continued statements about mislabeled parts can be stopped now. It's a simple matter of math. Mine show a current of 200mA at 5 V - what power dissipation do you get?
1 W.
How much is the maximum power dissipation of that package?
0.2 W.
Anybody remember a previous posting of someone with an exploded part? Is now clear why?
Anyway, how would you want to use such a part? Use it with a U_DS below 1 V? In the not-saturated region?
By the way, the 2SC3381 has a collector current of max 100mA.
All the best, Hannes
1 W.
How much is the maximum power dissipation of that package?
0.2 W.
Anybody remember a previous posting of someone with an exploded part? Is now clear why?
Anyway, how would you want to use such a part? Use it with a U_DS below 1 V? In the not-saturated region?
By the way, the 2SC3381 has a collector current of max 100mA.
All the best, Hannes
I could buy the thought that *maybe* they were labelled wrong by accident. But it seems most unlikely to me, that the same transistor would be split in two parts, again by accident, and the one part being labelled 2sj109, and the other part 2sk38.
In my mind there is no doubt that it's a fraud, problem is just to find out where, or by whom they were sold. If A'af's supplier is a weel known one, he will take responsibility and refund them to A'af. If not....... Well, i haven't thougt that through.
Anyway, happy new year everyone, i'm out of the house now, won't be back before next year 😀
In my mind there is no doubt that it's a fraud, problem is just to find out where, or by whom they were sold. If A'af's supplier is a weel known one, he will take responsibility and refund them to A'af. If not....... Well, i haven't thougt that through.
Anyway, happy new year everyone, i'm out of the house now, won't be back before next year 😀
hm, I wonder if the -BL or -GR or whatever else the other option for the group buy are fakes or not? I would be happy if A'Af investigates these and if they look to be truly NOS, then sending us these...
just my
just my
Please be reminded that the pinout of the dual JFET (2SK389) and dual BJT (2SC3381) are different, please see the attached pinout diagram for the 2SC3381. If you test the faked parts as a K389 for IDSS surely you would get uncontrolled current as you are actually measuring the forward current of a diode!
If you test them as 2SC3381 you do get sensible outcome (like NPN configuration, hfe 250~550), reflecting these parts are functional as NPN BJT (but not as JFET). I think by now no one would disagree that these parts were all faked, all were tinned, and at least some seemed to be pulled from circuit boards.
I agree that A'af should be more cautious when he saw the outlook of the pins of these part. But that was history now, and testiing the parts do requires some knownledge in electronics.
I am actually thinking of what I would use these parts for (as 2SC3381) if I have to live with them, as otherwise it would be a total lost. Current mirror, current sink, LTP for power supply regulator are some of my ideas. But I keep wanting the complement part (2SA1349) for full complementary topology.
Happy new year,
Edward Tam
If you test them as 2SC3381 you do get sensible outcome (like NPN configuration, hfe 250~550), reflecting these parts are functional as NPN BJT (but not as JFET). I think by now no one would disagree that these parts were all faked, all were tinned, and at least some seemed to be pulled from circuit boards.
I agree that A'af should be more cautious when he saw the outlook of the pins of these part. But that was history now, and testiing the parts do requires some knownledge in electronics.
I am actually thinking of what I would use these parts for (as 2SC3381) if I have to live with them, as otherwise it would be a total lost. Current mirror, current sink, LTP for power supply regulator are some of my ideas. But I keep wanting the complement part (2SA1349) for full complementary topology.
Happy new year,
Edward Tam
h_a said:
Attachments
Whatever they are they aren't 2sk389 so why are we agonizing over what else they might be - A'f or his supplier's got screwed and will we see a refund is likely the only question worth agonizing over. The way the group buy was run with the shipping delays and the time to ship them put us out of the PayPal coverage period . . We can likely forget about ever seeing 2sk389's of any gain group.
ticknpop said:
Hi,
I, for one, am not "agonising" over anything if you are referring to my comments.
As with kf_tam and some others, I have merely tried to provide some unemotional and factual information relating to the devices which I only received today, in the hope that it might be of some help to A'af when he talks to his suppliers, and to let others know what they have most likely ended-up with in this GB.
Also, I believe in being fair to others and giving anyone a chance in life when something as unusual as this happens. Unlike the earlier 'reference' to another GB which went wrong and nothing was ever apparently sent to participants in this other GB, A'af went to a lot of trouble in sending out these parts, and other members had already said in this thread that he was a trustworthy supplier of these kinds of parts, and had been so for some years.
We must all have realised that some risk was attached in a GB for these parts which are known to be 'as rare as hen's teeth', but because this was a 'once in a lifetime opportunity' we put our faith in an apparently-respected source. It is still my belief that A'af was not aware that these devices were obvious fakes, and rather unwisely he distributed them, but in good faith, in my opinion.
If my beliefs are correct, and only time will tell, I feel some sympathy for A'af as he has got himself into an invidious position, quite accidentally, and there is no likelihood that this can be resolved amicably for everyone concerned.
I am not suggesting that this applies to you, but to suddenly forget all the earlier cries of "what a great person A'af is" which were rife in this thread until this very unfortunate mishap occurred, is not in the spirit of fairness or being reasonable in my book, and he deserves the chance to put matters right before being condemned by anyone.
I trust that this makes my feelings on the matter quite clear, but I am not any more happy about this unsatisfactory position which we are all in, than anyone else.
Regards.
Before we go further into politics in passing the blame for what has happened here on communists, Asians, Africans, nazis, Jews, KKK, mafia, Belzebub, aliens or whatnot, it might help to remember that A'af has been a member since 2001. He has devoted his past 6 years here almost exclusively to selling electronic parts. He apparently did so well in earning people's trust that most members considered him to be a legitimate DIYAUDIO SELLER. He has also donated to diyaudio.com and as such was granted a special title (Audio Aficionados) by the management of this site to distinguish him from "ordinary" members. Many people here, me included, were led by these facts when they were making their decision to purchase the parts in question from A'af. We are not the victims of just another crook from the Far East as it has been implied here. We are talking about A'af - a successful and trusted diyaudio seller and donator. All this makes it a diyaudio problem too so please refrain from global politics. Gloating does not help either.
Happy New Year!
Regards,
Milan
Happy New Year!
Regards,
Milan
As you well know, anyone who donates, amateur, friend, foe, vendor, hobbyist, butcher, baker, or candlestick maker, is entitled to a custom title. I've even got one. Why would you read anything special into that? If that's what gives someone credibility in your mind, I don't pretend to understand what you're thinking.
Looking back, I'd agree on the track record, though, and if I were involved in this, that might give me some hope. Just sayin', I don't know anything that anyone else doesn't know- these aren't tubes, so are of much less interest to me.😉
Looking back, I'd agree on the track record, though, and if I were involved in this, that might give me some hope. Just sayin', I don't know anything that anyone else doesn't know- these aren't tubes, so are of much less interest to me.😉
SY said:
I can hook you up with a very reliable Nigerian if you agree to buy his entire stock of 2000 AD1s 🙂
AudioFreak said:
I'm from the far east, have lived abroad in 3 different continents and I believe where ever human is involved the possibility of getting duped by another human is always possible...if you watch Discovery or National Geo channel you'll find out the animal world has their version too.
I think it's a little bit odd that noone has determined what's really inside the package. Is it a JFET, BJT or something else, like pure metal?
What is the problem? These parts are apparently RE-LABELED Toshiba devices that are actually bipolar transistors. There are only a FEW parts made with this PACKAGE. One is a pair of bipolar transistors. Someone, somewhere, got parts from old circuit boards that LOOKED like Toshiba dual fets and RELABELED THEM. This has been proven by measurement. This is what I was first concerned about, WHEN such a SELECTION of devices was offered, by the distributor. It is easy to change a label.
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