Ha, well thank you again sir 🙂
The plan was to stack the full range right on top of the helper woofers (but in separate enclosures), so one could play around getting those lined up - I'm eager to try this fm static trick that was mentioned.
The subwoofer is another story though... it will be a single sub using a mono signal from the main amp/receiver, and will likely be too big to be up front with the other speakers. Probably end up stuffed in a back (or maybe still front) corner, or even behind the couch. If the back corners are far 3enough from the couch, that's probably ideal. But right behind the couch, or otherwise closer/farther than the mains presents a problem....
And, there's no time delay correction for the subwoofer outputs on any of the lower end active crossovers I'm looking at. I'll have to see if the receiver can do it, but I'm doubtful given it's age.
**The subwoofer time alignment might not actually be that big a deal - it's more for movies. As long as explosions/earthquakes/dinosaurs go BOOM, it probably won't be noticeable. For music, the subwoofer will be off.
So in conclusion, I guess we're really only worried about the timing of the main woofers and full rangers. So... If the woofer was in a cabinet like a karlson or mltl, part of the LF output would be directly radiated from the cone (and thus in time with the full range, if they are lined up), but the lower frequency bits that come out of the k/mltl ports would be out of time by a small amount compared to the big helper woofers (direct radiating). You're saying this would be largely ignorable? I just wondered if there wouldn't be some destructive interference or at least muddying of the water from that interaction, and if so, if that wouldn't give the sealed FR box a leg up on the other types.
The plan was to stack the full range right on top of the helper woofers (but in separate enclosures), so one could play around getting those lined up - I'm eager to try this fm static trick that was mentioned.
The subwoofer is another story though... it will be a single sub using a mono signal from the main amp/receiver, and will likely be too big to be up front with the other speakers. Probably end up stuffed in a back (or maybe still front) corner, or even behind the couch. If the back corners are far 3enough from the couch, that's probably ideal. But right behind the couch, or otherwise closer/farther than the mains presents a problem....
And, there's no time delay correction for the subwoofer outputs on any of the lower end active crossovers I'm looking at. I'll have to see if the receiver can do it, but I'm doubtful given it's age.
**The subwoofer time alignment might not actually be that big a deal - it's more for movies. As long as explosions/earthquakes/dinosaurs go BOOM, it probably won't be noticeable. For music, the subwoofer will be off.
So in conclusion, I guess we're really only worried about the timing of the main woofers and full rangers. So... If the woofer was in a cabinet like a karlson or mltl, part of the LF output would be directly radiated from the cone (and thus in time with the full range, if they are lined up), but the lower frequency bits that come out of the k/mltl ports would be out of time by a small amount compared to the big helper woofers (direct radiating). You're saying this would be largely ignorable? I just wondered if there wouldn't be some destructive interference or at least muddying of the water from that interaction, and if so, if that wouldn't give the sealed FR box a leg up on the other types.
Freddi - maybe.. we'll see. If I'm happy with one of the simpler options, I'll probably just stop there and enjoy it. 🙂
Agreed that the mltl would probably suffice for most, for modest listening volumes. But I want some headroom to occasionally crank it up... and also want more punch than a single 12" is liable to make. Currently looking at 2x 15"s per side for helper woofers, keep meaning to start a thread on them... maybe later after kiddos are in bed.
Agreed that the mltl would probably suffice for most, for modest listening volumes. But I want some headroom to occasionally crank it up... and also want more punch than a single 12" is liable to make. Currently looking at 2x 15"s per side for helper woofers, keep meaning to start a thread on them... maybe later after kiddos are in bed.
For effects, you can toy around with the sub's direction, placing in corner vs moving it a little bit around, toy with the level and crossover. Will be fine for effects. For music, hearing acuity in the base region varies tremendously from individual to individual. 95% of adult men have abysmal acuity in the sub 70Hz region. (Testosterone-associated progressive hearing loss that hits everyone, and we can escape it only if you ACTIVELY train your ears.) Not kidding, ask wife/GF/children to give advice on the base is in your system. For normal people around age 20-25, we can tell one note from another down to the 50Hz region, well-trained musicians down to the low 40s. Below 40hz is where the phase, tonal, timing errors cannot be heard consciously, but we register it because of the physical impact on our body (shaking bowels ; ).
My experience is that the key to accurate base is the 50-1000Hz region. The brain computes the fundamental from the higher harmonics. In case the higher harmonic structure is correct, but fundamental is missing, you will still "hear" it because the brain computes it. Conversely, if the fundamental is correct, but the higher harmonic structure is not right, it will sound hollow and fake.
So in case you get 20-50hz region correctly, but the crossover to higher frequencies is not right, it will mud the sound much more compared to make it better / more complete sounding.
In brief, if you get 50hz-15kHz very well, you will have much more natural sounding and compete presentation compared to big disconnect around the 50s. You can reach that disconnect using drivers of very different speed / sensitivity, or by using one sub instead of 2. 2 properly placed subs (can blend in) is always a big improvement over a single sub (that always sticks out badly if you have trained ears).
You're welcome!
Well, in that case, maybe the HT alignment I'm planning to use if I go with Fane or similar is a classic reflex [AKA prosound] alignment for max power [Xmax limited to ~117 dB/~70 Hz/2pi/m], low XO point, damped to 'taste'. Should meet THX reference in most HT apps if published specs aren't too far off. 😉
In what way?
The lower the frequency, the wider its BW, so most of the 'Boom' in a movie's Boom is in its harmonic structure, i.e. it's mixed for a < 80 Hz XO; go much higher and you'll need to at least get in the 'ballpark' and only gets more critical the higher you go.
GM
GM - Hmm, you'd go bass reflex after all? My thought for doing a sealed box was to have the same sort of tight punchy bass >150 hz (assuming previously discussed 150-750 hz xo range) to better match the helper woofers below. You'd trade that for a few more dB and lower extension that will be below the xo anyhow? Perhaps there's more to it than just those things though...
My other thought was to make sure that the full range + helper woofer setup is very "musical", or rather a bias towards music reproduction, and to do HT duty then really only requires the addition of a subwoofer for some rumble. That;s why I was thinking of sealed enclosures for FR + woofers, but having the sub be a horn loaded woofer (to maximize the rumble, haha).
In what way would it be a problem having the subwoofer close to the couch? I guess only if it was audible that the LF sound out of the sub was out of sync with the mains. I went on to say that it probably wasn't an issue (or much of one) since the frequencies involved were low. I did check and my receiver does not have timing adjustment for the LFE channel anyhow. So, it is what it is - so to speak.
"The lower the frequency, the wider its BW" BW = bandwidth, yes? I'm not sure I follow you on this... Something like an explosion in a movie would surely have sounds all across the spectrum, but I just meant that the low rumble part of it could be fairly out of time with the rest of it and probably not be that noticeable.
Right, standard THX is 80 hz... I was planning on setting up the subwoofer to run about 20 hz to maybe 60 hz. The woofers in the "helper woofer" part of the mains (each main being 2x 15" woofers and 1x 12" full range) should easily run down to 40 hz or less (and need to get down there for when they are on their own w/o Sub for music applications), so there'd be an overlap from ~40-60 hz where I'm not sure what would be going on, destructive or constructive. Are you saying that the crossover for the sub needs to be at 80 hz since that's what the dolby/dts programming expects? I'll be using that iNuke1000dsp for the single big sub, so at least it will all be adjustable... 🙂
That's what I'm more or less shooting for the full range + helper woofer to cover, then bring in a horn loaded subwoofer for the 20 hz rumbly HT stuff only. And since the full range will still be doing most of the range, it ought to be very coherent without any mud between drivers... I hope!
Thanks!
Jesse
Last edited:
X has a strong looking XKi alignment for Fane's 250-TC
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
Helper Woofer thread 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ww-etc-fane-12-range-drivers.html#post5179848
Freddi, I will be looking into the Xki for the Fane, hoping to do some prototyping in OSB here in the next few weeks.. depending on how long it takes to collect the necessary bits of kit, of course.
Edit:
In case I forgot to say it, thank you to all who have helped, I'm still learning but certainly picked up some new tricks here and appreciate the advice from those who have much more experience than I. And I'm excited to start building my FAST/WWW/SAW system! 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ww-etc-fane-12-range-drivers.html#post5179848
Freddi, I will be looking into the Xki for the Fane, hoping to do some prototyping in OSB here in the next few weeks.. depending on how long it takes to collect the necessary bits of kit, of course.
Edit:
In case I forgot to say it, thank you to all who have helped, I'm still learning but certainly picked up some new tricks here and appreciate the advice from those who have much more experience than I. And I'm excited to start building my FAST/WWW/SAW system! 🙂
Last edited:
Sure! Why not? Cinema, prosound, consumer systems designers all do it. With a ~50 Hz Fb and a < 80 Hz XO [Fb*2^0.5 considered the lower limit for 4th order], the worst of a reflex's 'nasties' is rolled off, leaving quite a bit of useful gain Vs sealed, i.e. most of the sealed's 'tightness' with most of the reflex's gain above Fb. At ~120 dB/peaks/Xmax, what's not to like for a budget DJ, HT or even a rocking vintage style two/three way HIFI app? If you want more boost above the impedance peak to further enhance 'punch' use a > 500 W amp to EQ it/use up its excess Xmax.
I'm not too worried about any obvious 'boominess' that HR predicts, but can always alter the tuning [smaller vent tuned a little lower] and add a bit of extra damping without losing much gain BW. Sealed is better for much higher XO points.
Let's see..... a 4th order XO has a 360 deg [1.0 Hz offset] delay, so ~1130 ft/80 Hz = ~14.125 ft, ergo if the sub's VC is this far in front of the mains' VCs [line of sight] it can be wired in phase, though in general we only need to get within a 1/4 WL, so normally plenty of placement wiggle room when XO'd down low in a typical size HIFI/HT layout. As you can see, for every octave increase the distance is halved, so not viable at 150 Hz in most apps unless a lower order XO is used.
BW = bandwidth, yes? Correct.
OK, I took your remark I responded to mean that for starters, you were just going two way to cover music and HT, so never mind.
GM
GM - hmmm, sealed vs BR (for the full range Fane) I will have to ponder more. For the helper woofer, I'm leaning towards making the box ported but able to be sealed easily to swap back and forth from a tuned BR design to sealed, see what sounds best and make it permanent or even swap things around from day to day if it's easy enough.
(removable wooden plug, or maybe if the port is pvc us an internally threaded fitting that I can put the matching threaded plug into...)
Especially useful if the crossover point is subject to change, which brings us to the next debacle...
The electronic crossovers that are LR4 have a 360 deg phase delay? I have more reading to do here apparently, I thought that the phase delays were only an issue with the passive xo.
If both the highs and lows coming out of the xo were delayed the same, then it wouldn't be much of an issue... But if just one or the other is, as you've stated the "sub" will be delayed (I take it you mean the helper woofer here, to clear the muddy water), then it seems like that would need fixed as you said before about adding delay electronically. Except that if it's the lows that are already delayed, then you really need to delay the highs to match, not delay the lows further... Or perhaps it's not a linear phase displacement thru the band, in which case I'm not sure what you could do. More reading, as I said.
Yes, 2-way (full range plus helper woofer) for stereo music, and then same 2-way plus horn loaded subwoofer for HT. Subwoofer will be built after the mains, so it may be 2 way for a while. Though I could still run the cheesy little Jensen 12" powered sub for a little bit of rumble.. maybe, maybe not even worth it.
Thanks!
Freddi - Nope! Whenever I looked before, they were sold out... They didn't sim as well as the pyles did for helper woofer duty, and I was too sold on the FR thing at the time to think about running coax drivers + helper woofers. Plus it was more cost when looking at doing a 3way passive xo, prior to reconsidering and going to active electronic xo. In hindsight, they would be nice drivers but I think the Fane will fit the bill... hopefully!
Thanks,
Jesse
with K15 & 15cxa -my guess = you would not needed anything else to get the "kick" (other than a few xover parts) and bass would have been powerful with nearly no visible cone movement. I have a few horns: Edgarhorns, Sentry IV horns, Klipschorns, Peavey FH1 (like Klipsch Belle but 6" deeper), custom RCA-Fan midbass, scaled University Classic, and still have respect for K15's "bass" which is very adept and can hit jaw dropping hard. The Fane may deliver in the right cabinet - I should pop it into the Karlsonator12 (fb~37Hz) and take some basic response measurements.
I'm still reading and trying to understand this... Reading here: Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers: A Primer
So, at 150hz xo it's 1125 fps/150 cps = 7.5 ft wavelength -> 7.5/4 = 1.88 ft.
and at 750 hz it's .38 ft.... so at that end it's becoming pretty manageable to physically offset the drivers...
But since the amount of shift is frequency dependent, isn't correcting for one end of the spectrum going to mess it up elsewhere?
I wasn't thinking in terms L-R XOs where the drivers have to be physically aligned vertically since it's often not only impractical, but the worst place to put a woofer.
Right, a 'helper' woofer OTOH can be.
Anyway, did I miss something? If you have L-R XO options, then normally there's digital TD included for this very reason.
GM
Right, a 'helper' woofer OTOH can be.
Anyway, did I miss something? If you have L-R XO options, then normally there's digital TD included for this very reason.
GM
Freddi - I don't disagree that a K might be impressive, just that in the sense of going overkill in terms of Sd (and or Vd), and sealed for "tight" & "punch" sound, I think the helper woofer will have a lot more headroom to play around with. And free up the Fane to not struggle with the high excursion stuff at the same time. I'd still like to build a K of some type in the future - wait til the addiction fully takes hold 😉
No, I don't think you guys are missing anything - it's me that's missing something! (As usual, sorry!)
The active crossover that I've nearly bought several times now is the behringer CX2310, a cheap 2 way stereo active xo with LR4 curves, 25 hz highpass, and a combined mono sub out. No time delay though. The CX3400 is a 3 way xo and does have the time delay, as do some of the other xo's (also looking at used Rane or DBX, etc). My understanding on the time delay was that it was only to account for distance differences between drivers and listener. If the time delay (note i am definitely confusing time delay and phase delay at this point) is variable with frequency, then you can hardly account for it with a fixed amount of delay dialed in...
So if the drivers are more or less aligned (they should be close, even in the same baffle), do I need the time delay, or not?
While I'm asking, am I better off with a better used xo like a dbx or Rane, or is it risky with used potentiometers? Also, the other brands (other than beheringer) seem to have high pass filters at 40hz rather than 25hz... that seems rather high, though they are 12 db/octave not 24.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here either...
Last edited:
Okay, i think i understand what you meant... maybe, probably.
Since the woofers we're talking about are the helper woofers not the sub, things will be okay...?
Since the woofers we're talking about are the helper woofers not the sub, things will be okay...?
in the quest for "punch" perhaps these common drum tuning frequencies tell something. My little midbass horn misses some of the tom Fs and kick drum - so helper woofer/sub would have to carry the burden.
Tune Bot Drum Tuner
Tune Bot Drum Tuner
This thread was interesting read! All the puzzles and hurdles when it comes to picking and choosing from seemingly never ending range of options. Full-range big / small, OB, simple sealed box to Karlson type enclosure and everything between. Crossover type and freq., should there be helper tweeter or not. And the list goes on and on...
I just went through more or less the same process a while ago and at the end of the day I would focus the limitations which you have to work with. Most important ones being, the budget - small budget = keep it simple and the room you are working with, which translates to the limitations of the enclosure types to choose from. Everything else after that is more or less personal preference. Like buying a car, for some it might be muscle car and for someone else it might be luxury car and some people are happy driving a bicycle. There is so much to choose from, that best thing one can do is try something and just go for it. Build something, tweak it, enjoy it and most importantly share your findings with family and friends! And when you think you are done - do it all over again with something new. 🙂
I just went through more or less the same process a while ago and at the end of the day I would focus the limitations which you have to work with. Most important ones being, the budget - small budget = keep it simple and the room you are working with, which translates to the limitations of the enclosure types to choose from. Everything else after that is more or less personal preference. Like buying a car, for some it might be muscle car and for someone else it might be luxury car and some people are happy driving a bicycle. There is so much to choose from, that best thing one can do is try something and just go for it. Build something, tweak it, enjoy it and most importantly share your findings with family and friends! And when you think you are done - do it all over again with something new. 🙂
- Status
- Not open for further replies.