My understanding was that the K-tubes go with separate compression drivers. Since the Fane is a whizzer cone model, it ought to work similar to some of the coaxial woofer/CD drivers that Freddi and Xrk have played with - I thought this was just dispersion due to the K-aperture curtains?
a passive K-tube mounted right in front of a whizzer might be subjectively useful if the FR has a very hot top end. Excursion would have to be consdiered so the cone would not hit the tube during loud passages. K-tube been used on coax by K-folk for years.
Below is a link to my Youtube video of a 1"x5.3" tube taped onto a piece of 1"PVC for an extension and crammed down the throat of an Eminence 15CX. This particular sounds pretty good with the stock coax horn. Using a tube, improves HF dispersion and removes most of the highs from the "mechanical reverb" effect of the front chamber.
David A. Young, who used to post on Job Ulfman's forum, spoke of converting some coax woofer with rear mounted compression driver to "koax". Others have used a K-tube on coaxial with tweeter in front of the woofer cone such as car coax with 1" dome tweeters.
I don't think the conical horn from Eminence's BetaCX line will easily remove. In that case, the throat end of the K-tube could beveled and glued to the horn with epoxy. Putty could be used to smooth the transition from the horn to the slotted pipe. That said, the original Karlson speakers can sound awesome with the right coax or FR.
YouTube
Below is a link to my Youtube video of a 1"x5.3" tube taped onto a piece of 1"PVC for an extension and crammed down the throat of an Eminence 15CX. This particular sounds pretty good with the stock coax horn. Using a tube, improves HF dispersion and removes most of the highs from the "mechanical reverb" effect of the front chamber.
David A. Young, who used to post on Job Ulfman's forum, spoke of converting some coax woofer with rear mounted compression driver to "koax". Others have used a K-tube on coaxial with tweeter in front of the woofer cone such as car coax with 1" dome tweeters.
I don't think the conical horn from Eminence's BetaCX line will easily remove. In that case, the throat end of the K-tube could beveled and glued to the horn with epoxy. Putty could be used to smooth the transition from the horn to the slotted pipe. That said, the original Karlson speakers can sound awesome with the right coax or FR.
YouTube
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Thanks Freddi,
So the k-aperture will only disperse the sound coming from the main cone?
Also from your video, I just saw that the Klam has the k-aperture oriented the other way 'round vs the std. Karlson.. does it not matter?
I did see in another post somewhere that the reason for having the baffle at an angle to the k-aperture curtains is to prevent a resonance. If this is true, then the baffle in mind would likely need to be vertical, and the k-aperture would be at an angle from that (probably sloping back for aesthetics anyway).
IF the full range is up off the floor a good ways (up on top of helper woofer cabinet) away from children's prying fingers, and
if it will still work with the speaker baffle oriented vertically, I think I'd like to give it a go... 🙂
Probably a modified Karlson, Karlsonator, or XKi then (or Klam, etc)... Since the full range in the k-box will always have a large helper woofer handling the low end up to 150-750 hz somewhere, is there any reason to go with one type over the other?
SOVEREIGN 12-250TC
"a very hot top end" seems to sum up the Fane 12" FR pretty well. It's got that dual whizzer cone, so yeah you'd have to support a k-tube somehow at least 3.5mm away (xmax)... Maybe a tube that was somewhat oversized in diameter to make up for it being a short distance away, to try and "capture" the highs emitted?
So the k-aperture will only disperse the sound coming from the main cone?
Also from your video, I just saw that the Klam has the k-aperture oriented the other way 'round vs the std. Karlson.. does it not matter?
I did see in another post somewhere that the reason for having the baffle at an angle to the k-aperture curtains is to prevent a resonance. If this is true, then the baffle in mind would likely need to be vertical, and the k-aperture would be at an angle from that (probably sloping back for aesthetics anyway).
IF the full range is up off the floor a good ways (up on top of helper woofer cabinet) away from children's prying fingers, and
if it will still work with the speaker baffle oriented vertically, I think I'd like to give it a go... 🙂
Probably a modified Karlson, Karlsonator, or XKi then (or Klam, etc)... Since the full range in the k-box will always have a large helper woofer handling the low end up to 150-750 hz somewhere, is there any reason to go with one type over the other?
SOVEREIGN 12-250TC
some of the high frequency energy would be dispersed- off axis, whatever is bouncing around. Overall it would still be beamy. That review of the Karlsonette with PS220 tells something about the way it may sound. That Fane played well in a K12 - clear mids - -"papery" extended treble (as opposed to plastic and metal compression drivers, hard whizers) I could dig the Fane out, put it in a Karlsonator and see roughly how bad its peaking on the bottom from its high Q motor.
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If you're curious, by all means try it in the karlsonator, but no need to on my account - thanks though!
(he's thinking about it 😀) The Karlson klam aperture usually faced down as they were intended to be on high tripods or at the ceiling junction like the AP100 klams installed at Radio City Music Hall. I think Jess Oliver's "Magna Clam" was the same speaker as the Karlson AP100. I think those 15" klams.clam (supposed "clam" shaped dispersion pattern) used an Altec 421 and and an internal K-tube and compression driver - I don't know where the tube mounted as have never seen a close up picture.
is amazing the Fane can reach 17Khz even it ifs plus minus 5 degrees off axis - a "helper" tweeter might make it nicer. Overall, it sounded good enough in my K12.
one guy thanked me for the results from his double build of the APX/Oliver Phase III - he used
it on top of a golf cart for advertising
is amazing the Fane can reach 17Khz even it ifs plus minus 5 degrees off axis - a "helper" tweeter might make it nicer. Overall, it sounded good enough in my K12.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
one guy thanked me for the results from his double build of the APX/Oliver Phase III - he used
it on top of a golf cart for advertising
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Yes, still thinking about it.. you should try going furniture shopping with me... =)
So opening of k aperture down for floor speaker, opening up for ceiling speaker, got it thanks! Not sure if it matters which way for me since the driver will be up at ear level stacked on top of woofer cabinet.
I'm curious to see how it sims in XKi vs a k12 or karlsonator, though i should probably be more worried about smoothing out the mids and highs rather than the bass extension, since it will run with helper woofer.
So opening of k aperture down for floor speaker, opening up for ceiling speaker, got it thanks! Not sure if it matters which way for me since the driver will be up at ear level stacked on top of woofer cabinet.
I'm curious to see how it sims in XKi vs a k12 or karlsonator, though i should probably be more worried about smoothing out the mids and highs rather than the bass extension, since it will run with helper woofer.
There's an easy solution: build two each side and stack them bottom to bottom on top of the woofer.
They don't IME with the K15, which was when I was 10-12 yrs old [hence very keen hearing] and no inexpensive 12-15" [i.e. with/without whizzer and/or with the funky scalloped ring radiator] we tried worked well in it, even when just reproducing an AM radio's 100- 5 kHz BW, though made a serious 'bass' bin [mid-upper bass actually since there was no real bass on recordings] in a corner.
It so turned me and its owner [40 something next door neighbor] against it that when I joined the audio forums I was one of the 'bashers' of this really bad audio 'joke' until Freddy got me to take a serious look at it many years later, showing where it was really designed for the upscale Altec and similar duplex speakers, which makes more sense, but truly 'snake oil' marketing made sure it would be ~uniformly scorned. That, and few folks had a clue how it worked, though didn't fool at least one industry pro, so no doubt others 'practiced in the art' of acoustics.
More recently, I've experimented a bit with K-tubes and combined with some of Freddy's measurements, it seems the way to go IF [big IF] such a super wide polar response is desirable, which normally means either a mono or really large room app. Could be just the thing for when one has a high aspect ratio room and want to use the long walls in lieu of the traditional narrow sound wall and adjust the listening distance.
All that said, I will still continue to only recommend it as a compact mid-bass horn up to 250-500 Hz BW depending on how much 'ripple' one will likely tolerate.
GM
re: whizzers - I've had no real trouble from limited experience other than what they do as direct radiator
for K15 - EV's SP15 from the 1960s sounded very good other than restricted to ~11K as there's no tweeter. It had a somewhat nicer and more beautiful midrange than the later SP15A - perhaps the earlier version had a paper voice coil former and later, aluminum (?) Audio Nirvana AN10 sounded good overall in K15 and the Karlsonator 12 - its rough as a direct radiator. EV's SP15B had a nice midrange but mine aged and weak to begin with had Qts ~1 or higher so some peaking and darkening (fun with Nick Cave "Murder Ballads" drums !!!) on the bottom - similar for EV Wolverine in K12 but the Wolverine really needs open baffle rather than any small cabinet. FE206EN was much fun in K12, AN8 - OK - "darker" than FE206EN. The AN have extended on axis treble which goes a bit higher than FE205EN - but I always prefer the Fostex. Audio Gradient AX08 is wiry sounding speaker with a lot of on axis rise and LCR BSC needed to balance even in a Karlson. Eminence's 12LTA sounds as good or better in a K than direct radiator. Fane 250TC - nice in K12 - "papery" highs from its double whizzer.
smaller coupler such as SK8 and a taller version of K8 sound nice with W8-1772.
I do like coaxial in Karlson and have four pairs of different Eminence 12cx - one pair with cast frame, 54 or 56 oz magnet and "hornless", one pair stamped frame, 54/56 oz magnet and horn, one pair cast frame with horn and 80 oz manget, one pair cast frame, horn, and 109oz magnet. Then some Beyma 12cx (nice mids)
if there's a problem with whizzer in a traditional Karlson 15 or 12, then it may be an inherent fault of the speaker. I'd love to hear a Lowther.
for K15 - EV's SP15 from the 1960s sounded very good other than restricted to ~11K as there's no tweeter. It had a somewhat nicer and more beautiful midrange than the later SP15A - perhaps the earlier version had a paper voice coil former and later, aluminum (?) Audio Nirvana AN10 sounded good overall in K15 and the Karlsonator 12 - its rough as a direct radiator. EV's SP15B had a nice midrange but mine aged and weak to begin with had Qts ~1 or higher so some peaking and darkening (fun with Nick Cave "Murder Ballads" drums !!!) on the bottom - similar for EV Wolverine in K12 but the Wolverine really needs open baffle rather than any small cabinet. FE206EN was much fun in K12, AN8 - OK - "darker" than FE206EN. The AN have extended on axis treble which goes a bit higher than FE205EN - but I always prefer the Fostex. Audio Gradient AX08 is wiry sounding speaker with a lot of on axis rise and LCR BSC needed to balance even in a Karlson. Eminence's 12LTA sounds as good or better in a K than direct radiator. Fane 250TC - nice in K12 - "papery" highs from its double whizzer.
smaller coupler such as SK8 and a taller version of K8 sound nice with W8-1772.
I do like coaxial in Karlson and have four pairs of different Eminence 12cx - one pair with cast frame, 54 or 56 oz magnet and "hornless", one pair stamped frame, 54/56 oz magnet and horn, one pair cast frame with horn and 80 oz manget, one pair cast frame, horn, and 109oz magnet. Then some Beyma 12cx (nice mids)
if there's a problem with whizzer in a traditional Karlson 15 or 12, then it may be an inherent fault of the speaker. I'd love to hear a Lowther.
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I see... I do recall reading previously that the Karlson type enclosures were better suited to larger rooms. (But had forgotten)
I will probably try a prototype box out of OSB to see how it sounds. Maybe do a prototype k12, sealed, and aperiodic em-ken to try the fane in... see what sounds best to my ears. Not sure if I would notice that ripple or not.. probably in a tone sweep, but in music not sure.
Thanks,
Jesse
I will probably try a prototype box out of OSB to see how it sounds. Maybe do a prototype k12, sealed, and aperiodic em-ken to try the fane in... see what sounds best to my ears. Not sure if I would notice that ripple or not.. probably in a tone sweep, but in music not sure.
Thanks,
Jesse
Thanks Freddi, I'd still like the 12lta too but since I'm already bi-amping for the full range and helper woofers, I'd rather not have to do a tweeter too. Not fond of the audio nirvana stuff? I was tempted to try their 8" but i think i will prefer the fullness of the 12" so given my budget i will pick the fane. Also AN seems to claim that each of their drivers are the best ever.. its a bit too much marketing fluff for me.
No experience with the K-12, though is much simpler, with fewer resonating cavities, better damped vent design, so doesn't have as much gain and 'ripple'.
Freddy,
Ever done a 15" variant? I can't remember 🙁.
GM
Based on this, it would be my choice too if for no other reason than to keep the XO point as low as practical.
GM
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