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I do tend to agree with you on that - EQ is best avoided (unless going the whole-hog with DSP perhaps).
I've been thinking about building a pair of high sensitivity speakers sometime so I have an excuse to build more amps
I'm not unhappy with my mono 15" driver set-up but I have another room I could shoe-horn another set-up into for that stereo experience. It ain't a huge space so I would want speakers that are good in the mid-field, where multiple drivers would not have enough room to 'integrate'.
If somebody would please compare the AN Super 12" with the 604-8H I'd buy them a beer.
I've been thinking about building a pair of high sensitivity speakers sometime so I have an excuse to build more amps
I'm not unhappy with my mono 15" driver set-up but I have another room I could shoe-horn another set-up into for that stereo experience. It ain't a huge space so I would want speakers that are good in the mid-field, where multiple drivers would not have enough room to 'integrate'.
If somebody would please compare the AN Super 12" with the 604-8H I'd buy them a beer.
-How can passive components in, for e.g., a Zobel impedance correction network be 'active' (since they are passive), or 'kill the harmonics'? Harmonics are an inherent part of the frequency response, and since the Zobel does not affect that the unspecified harmonics are not 'killed'. QED. I use them on a regular basis in many designs of varying types and have never once had the slightest issue.
-Excessive use of passive EQ can be problematic, although much of that is simply due to poor implementation or needing to adjust expectations due to the altered FR & impedance curves & typically needing a bit more power.
-Internal damping of a sealed or vented box, damps its output / alignment rather than 'ups the bass', the clue being in the name...
-Excessive use of passive EQ can be problematic, although much of that is simply due to poor implementation or needing to adjust expectations due to the altered FR & impedance curves & typically needing a bit more power.
-Internal damping of a sealed or vented box, damps its output / alignment rather than 'ups the bass', the clue being in the name...
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I dont know about "eq is best avoided". I think it's rather "EQ is best done with moderation". Even if you have the processing power, there is more elegance in careful minor corrections.
Why is the Radian 5215B not an alternative? It's 600$ each, has nearly completely flat response, and I'd guess that the actual spl/w is very equal to the GPA 604-8H.
I find it very hard to accept GPA's claim of 100db/w, and only down to 98db's at 100hz. They do admittedly mention that the measurements are "Measured using GPA N604-8A Crossover in 9 cubic foot tuned enclosure", but say nothing else about the measurement conditions. It is probably a really good driver, and should perform very well. Just having a hard time accepting the numbers in play here.
Looking at the curves on Scott's overlay, I'd personally come out and say that they are vastly different. The AN has a clearly rising HF response, and is almost consistently 2-5db lower in output under 1khz, while at the same time having higher output/heavier peaks and dips over 2khz.
One is a well implemented coaxial, and be certain that there is eq in them filters. The other is a classic relatively large FR unit with the response that often caracterize such units.
Why is the Radian 5215B not an alternative? It's 600$ each, has nearly completely flat response, and I'd guess that the actual spl/w is very equal to the GPA 604-8H.
I find it very hard to accept GPA's claim of 100db/w, and only down to 98db's at 100hz. They do admittedly mention that the measurements are "Measured using GPA N604-8A Crossover in 9 cubic foot tuned enclosure", but say nothing else about the measurement conditions. It is probably a really good driver, and should perform very well. Just having a hard time accepting the numbers in play here.
Looking at the curves on Scott's overlay, I'd personally come out and say that they are vastly different. The AN has a clearly rising HF response, and is almost consistently 2-5db lower in output under 1khz, while at the same time having higher output/heavier peaks and dips over 2khz.
One is a well implemented coaxial, and be certain that there is eq in them filters. The other is a classic relatively large FR unit with the response that often caracterize such units.
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No doubt the Radian will be very good.
I would expect GPA's published data to be reasonably representative. The 604-16X was about 97dB, the 604-8K about 98, the 604-8E about 99dB - 100dB depending on how you prefer to average it and traditionally all these big Altec units were measured in large vented boxes, so GPA are essentially following in the same vein.
I would expect GPA's published data to be reasonably representative. The 604-16X was about 97dB, the 604-8K about 98, the 604-8E about 99dB - 100dB depending on how you prefer to average it and traditionally all these big Altec units were measured in large vented boxes, so GPA are essentially following in the same vein.
Wholeheartedly agree with all of this! I avoid unnecessary eq, but properly implemented it isn't problematic at all.
(My previous comment regarding being called a shill was directed at fullrangeman, not you by the way, carry on, I enjoy your comments)
With all the due respect Sir, electric parts as inductors, caps, Zobel, resistances are never passive since they modify the electric signal, if these parts were passive they would have NO effect on the electric signal (music) and neither be used.
These parts are justly used in electronics because they modify the electrical signal to do a certain task, a few years ago I already have told it to you.
Well, this is a curious way to see xovers electrical components, I am surprised by this peculiarity, it certainly is a romantic British look, not faithful to the electrons behavior but yet funny.
I must say I dont know Scott personaly but I also like his explanations on enclosures and xovers, I just like to avoid mistakes in small important details in FR drivers use so that people are aware that these parts yes change the musical signal.
I must say I dont know Scott personaly but I also like his explanations on enclosures and xovers, I just like to avoid mistakes in small important details in FR drivers use so that people are aware that these parts yes change the musical signal.
Obviously English is not my native language but in electronics nomenclature passive elements does not have a gain and are not controlled by external supply, so Zobel and xovers are passive
Both essentially correct.
Non-exhaustive list, but likely covers most components we use in our DIY audio projects:
Passive: resistor, inductor (transformer), capacitor
Active: diode, transistor (BP & FET), op-amp, IC, vaccuum tube
As for passive components reducing dynamics, probably measurable in that they generally have insertion loss and self-noise, but that'd be in small fractions of a dB and unlikely to be detected by ear.
Passive: resistor, inductor (transformer), capacitor
Active: diode, transistor (BP & FET), op-amp, IC, vaccuum tube
As for passive components reducing dynamics, probably measurable in that they generally have insertion loss and self-noise, but that'd be in small fractions of a dB and unlikely to be detected by ear.
Please stop the attempt at a patronising form of address. Given that you have shown a remarkable lack of technical understanding throughout this thread, I'm afraid you're not well placed to be engaging in that sort of activity.
The standard definition used in loudspeakers is that a passive component or circuit is unpowered, i.e. does not produce power-gain, unlike active (independently powered) circuits which can provide that effect by increasing draw from the amplifier at desired points.
Passive components and circuits are used to attenuate specific parts of a frequency band while passing others (high, low and bandpass) or to cancel the reactive portion of a varying impedance. Certain types of passive component may have characteristics that require correct selection and application; the fact that some (some) components have inferior electrical characteristics to others does not mean any and every use of components is somehow going to reduce performance in unspecified ways. It just means you need to be compentent in their selection and implementation.
Note that while inductors, capacitors and resistors are components, Zobels which you also appear to classify as components are actually circuit elements (a.k.a. filter sections).
You mean in terms of basic electrical engineering, the way most people do?
I prefer Emilia Clarke myself, but I'm delighted to learn that elementary electrical principles are considered a 'romantic British look'.
Excellent. I recommend you try to read up on basic acoustical and electrical engineering, and then you will avoid mistakes in large, even more important matters, such as defining passive components as active, claiming that acoustical damping increases acoustical output (gain), and that RC Zobel impedance-flattening networks roll off high frequency harmonics while allowing high frequency fundamentals to pass unhindered.
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So going back to Karlsonator 0.53... I got the drivers . Based on the Skylar88's sketches I have created PDF file with dimensioned internal elements (206mm in length). So far I haven't found any carpenter who would like to make these boards with edges cut under a non-standard angle... or maybe they are too scared of the two decimal numbers
I got the drivers . Based on the Skylar88's sketches I have created PDF file with dimensioned internal elements (206mm in length). So far I haven't found any carpenter who would like to make these boards with edges cut under a non-standard angle... or maybe they are too scared of the two decimal numbers 
Meanwhile... back on topic: Speaker options for a 45 SET
I've been using the Fostex FE206ES-R drivers in Sachiko cabinets for quite a while now and am quite happy using them with my Korneff 45 integrated amplifier. The Sachiko cabinet design has been updated and re-named Kirishima and is supposed to be significantly improved. The 206ES-R drivers are long gone but every once in a while come up for sale. They're 98db 1W/1M and can really rock on the 2W that a 45 single ended amp puts out.
If you can't find the FE206ES-R drivers, the 208E sigma Fostex drivers only give up 1db of output but have also been used in Sachiko (and probably Kirishima) cabinets. The sigmas need a supertweeter as they have no whizzer (whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your ears and dogma/religious preference). The cabinets were designed by Scottmoose and he has a series of Fostex cabinets he sells under the Woden Audio name as well. I have no doubt they sound amazing.
Another option would be to use the above Fostex drivers or Lowthers in a BIB cabinet. If you can put them in or near corners they'd be your best bet if you want deep bass.
I recently put a pair of Electro-Voice 12TRXB drivers in the "JE Labs" open baffle and was absolutely shocked by how good they sounded. I was intrigued enough to buy a pair of SP12B (same drivers as above minus the center mounted T35 tweeter) in order to experiment further. The 12TRXB's are 97 db efficient and worked great with my Korneff. I'm very interested in the Fane drivers as well though I haven't heard them. There are also Electro Voice SP15B's which are fifteen inch versions of the SP12B drivers. I'd love to get my hands on a pair of those.
I've been using the Fostex FE206ES-R drivers in Sachiko cabinets for quite a while now and am quite happy using them with my Korneff 45 integrated amplifier. The Sachiko cabinet design has been updated and re-named Kirishima and is supposed to be significantly improved. The 206ES-R drivers are long gone but every once in a while come up for sale. They're 98db 1W/1M and can really rock on the 2W that a 45 single ended amp puts out.
If you can't find the FE206ES-R drivers, the 208E sigma Fostex drivers only give up 1db of output but have also been used in Sachiko (and probably Kirishima) cabinets. The sigmas need a supertweeter as they have no whizzer (whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your ears and dogma/religious preference). The cabinets were designed by Scottmoose and he has a series of Fostex cabinets he sells under the Woden Audio name as well. I have no doubt they sound amazing.
Another option would be to use the above Fostex drivers or Lowthers in a BIB cabinet. If you can put them in or near corners they'd be your best bet if you want deep bass.
I recently put a pair of Electro-Voice 12TRXB drivers in the "JE Labs" open baffle and was absolutely shocked by how good they sounded. I was intrigued enough to buy a pair of SP12B (same drivers as above minus the center mounted T35 tweeter) in order to experiment further. The 12TRXB's are 97 db efficient and worked great with my Korneff. I'm very interested in the Fane drivers as well though I haven't heard them. There are also Electro Voice SP15B's which are fifteen inch versions of the SP12B drivers. I'd love to get my hands on a pair of those.
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In private correspondence I've had some encouraging reports about the Fane drivers - apparently their sound in reality is not as harsh as their published FR specs would imply. This bodes well given their keen pricing. I'm aways nervous about the FR, I have fussy ears - one of those age related things most likely but Fostex drivers I've tried (FE127) are like ice-picks to my ears. Never heard the larger drivers - they look very nicely built.
I've found the Fostex drivers with whizzers sound much better with a phase plug installed. I must confess that it was rather scary to take a hobby knife to my FE206ES-R drivers but the result is much improved treble extension and dispersion as well as less harshness. I haven't heard the smaller Fostex units but I listen to all sorts of music so I need some dynamics. I think if I was on a tight budget I'd be looking at the FE206En drivers with phase plugs or the Fane drivers in an open baffle. I think more than 2W of amplifier power would be needed with the 206En unless you have a smaller room or listen at low volume levels.
Never heard this driver, but the published FR isn't that scary IMO. The on and off-axis plots mirror themselves to some extent, which should make for a good power response in-room, with the caveat that I'm not sure what angle the blue trace was taken at. Perhaps the ~5kHz-8kHz area will be a bit hotter.
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