phn said:
And you guys seem to believe that cutting edge physics will...take you...where? A belief? A want? These statements cut both ways.
Ignorance is no excuse.
As Mr. Curl's signature says, "Condemnation without examination IS prejudice."
Just how much predjudice are you guys going to embarass yourselves with, here in this thread?
Or, Should I say, 'Do you guys collectively want a peanut for your monkey?'
Edit: I belive an experiment done by the corporation Hitachi, in the early 90's proved differently. There would be two moons. But only one when -someone was directly observing it. This, they said, they proved - conclusively. Heisenberg. Wave AND particle.
The term layman implies ignorance. How could someone who believes in BS be less ignorant than someone who doesn't?
My point exactly, Poobah. The BS is the condemnation without examination.
But we are all getting far past silly here. It would be nice if we could all go out for a beer or something. The immediate person connection of a good conversation has a habit of clearing this stuff up pretty fast, or it gets ugly fast...sometimes...
Sometimes the best of friends can be made from the ugliest of beginnings.
But we are all getting far past silly here. It would be nice if we could all go out for a beer or something. The immediate person connection of a good conversation has a habit of clearing this stuff up pretty fast, or it gets ugly fast...sometimes...
Sometimes the best of friends can be made from the ugliest of beginnings.
Sy's avatar
Actually (I didn't want to say this).. but I KNEW who Sy's avatar would be b4 he changed it!
... but fearing that y'all would want some sort of proof that I knew this, I didn't speak up, lest I influence the decision to make the change prior to its occurance, hence, no violation of quantum entanglement, and Heisenberg can rest in peace...
Actually (I didn't want to say this).. but I KNEW who Sy's avatar would be b4 he changed it!
... but fearing that y'all would want some sort of proof that I knew this, I didn't speak up, lest I influence the decision to make the change prior to its occurance, hence, no violation of quantum entanglement, and Heisenberg can rest in peace...
Since we can't do it, I toasted I_F, and drank his beer first, I'm working on Poobah's now (thanks for sharing, Poobah! To the good life! Salut!)...and I'll drink Sy's next. Just in case you can't psychically figure it out, it's Corona Extra...yumm...
I'll be one gassy cat on Monday.
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/em/doubleslit.cfm
This is apparently part of what I read about in the Scientific American mag, in the early 90's. What I read was that the particle could be seen to be singular when directly observed, but when remotely observed (recorded), it seemed to be in two places at the same time..but collapsing to the singular, in the act of direct (human) observation. I'm looking for the exact reference. I think I kept that issue....
it's Corona Extra...yumm...I'll be one gassy cat on Monday.
http://www.hqrd.hitachi.co.jp/em/doubleslit.cfm
This is apparently part of what I read about in the Scientific American mag, in the early 90's. What I read was that the particle could be seen to be singular when directly observed, but when remotely observed (recorded), it seemed to be in two places at the same time..but collapsing to the singular, in the act of direct (human) observation. I'm looking for the exact reference. I think I kept that issue....
I believe auplater already referenced the materials you need to research to find your answer there, KBK.
audio-kraut said:
I was not referring specifically to you or your posts. I was referring to the many finge web sites that have been linked-to in this forum. It was you who pointed out the "digram" error.
kvholio said:
This is the problem with the lunatic fringe. They don't think anything matters but what they think. Newton? A scoundrel! Einstein? Misguided! Feynman? A cad! All the so-called great scientists were completely wrong about everything, especially anything to do with thermodynamics...
Spelling? What does it matter? It is the thought behind the words that counts! Math errors? Well, it happens. We have to get beyond petty contrivances such as a need to get details correct. Fer chrissakes, we're talking about the future of the human race here!
Actually, a scientist cares because good spelling is fundamental to accurate communication of ideas. It is the first step. You have to get the spelling right before anyone will read your stuff. If your stuff is full of errors, spelling or math, educated people think you are uneducated and you will not be taken seriously.
If you are handed two typed papers, one written by your average 10 year old and the other by an educated professional, how would you tell which paper was written by whom? You'd look at grammar errors, spelling errors, word usage, complexity of ideas, and etc. The same sort of evaluation goes on whenever someone reads what you write. It is the reason why magazines, newspapers, and professional journals have editors.
Educated, intelligent people expect other educated, intelligent people to do certain things. They expect them to be able to communicate and to provide proof of wild claims. They expect others to do what they say they will do, to show up on time, and to be dressed appropriately. When any of these things are amiss, your credibility is reduced.
I didn't make the rules. That's just the way it is. You can choose to live in denial of it and remain on the fringe, or you can do the work and become part of the mainstream.
I_F
I_Forgot said:
Including proper use of "etc.". "Et cetera" is Latin for "and the rest", thus one does not use "and" with "etc.", as it is already included.
Just poking fun, what with the kettles, pots and whatnot.
KBK said:
You see this and think there is some psychic link between the observer and the particles. It's like looking out the window every morning and seeing that the sun is up and thinking that the sun is up because you are looking out the window.
I see it and it tells me that the behavior is more complex than we currently understand. It's no big deal. There are many educated people working on such issues right now, and one day they may be understood. I'm betting there won't be any psychic phenomena involved because there has never been any psychic phenomena involved in anything else.
I_F
Somewhat, but rather distantly related:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article2134891.ece
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article2134891.ece
The background research on Newton's other works (raw data and personal works) has only recently come to light, as his research papers, the unpublished ones, are only now coming out into the open, having been kept by his family members for many years.
It seems that Newton was brought to the post being responsible for the royal mint (head of it) due to his alchemical fame, at that time. This was used to keep people from completing a 'run' on the 'reserve' system of banking, which was only newly enacted, at that time. The thought that the famous alchemist, Newton could simply have created the silver and gold that the bank was written on the back of, but actually did not exist, was the key point of the act of propoganda. Apparently created. We do not know.
There is a story about a specific man who prevented an actual run, a business man, who on the steps of the mint no less..turned back a crowd (elite mob!) who were making an actual attempt on a run, specifically to crash the Crown. His words and attitude on those steps on that one day..was all the kept the Bank of England, and the Crown itself from crashing. The gratitude of the Crown was such that his face was put on the 50 pound note.
Newton's fame, and the validity of the principa was heavily propagandized by all involved..this includes the backers of the bank, the elite of England at the time who were involved with the Crown, and the King and his offices, and all connected, in a battle to make the crown solvent in the face of the opposition they were facing. Basically, the Principa and Newton were heavily politicized and promoted to elevate Newton and his validity.
It is possible to say that Newton might have died a realtive unknown, without this support. Apparently, Newton relished and used, and even abused the fame (re: the Royal Society, in terms of domination and control) and power he was given. He had an ego, apparently a big one. Christopher Wren, utilizing his position within the Royal society and connections with the crown, built much in the way of edifices and buildings for the Crown and bank (finacing! Debt! Money for the crown!) and was deeply connected to the Jakobites and the alchemists (The Royal Society, Boyle, Hooke, and others).....and much of the creations of his and their placements in London embody an incredible amount of sacred mumbers and formula of a purely alchemical nature. Do I have to write books here? The data is out there. All one has to do...is go looking for it.
This reserve banking system was brought to America, where it eventually left the solvency and credibility of the US Banking system as it is today.
Apparently, from the writings of that time, and records..Newton actually enjoyed catching counterfeiters. His job then as head of the mint, was to be sole judge and jury for them. He condemmed them to being drawn and quartered..slowly. The records state that he drew enjoyment from this aspect. This is not the mark of a mentally healthy man, in terms of his actions toward others. At that time, it may have ben considered, normal... but not to me.
This does not lower the importance of his work. But it does shed some light on the personal stance and mentality of the man.
Also, apparently, the bulk of his theological works, were an attempt to understand the biblical implications and depth of involvement in alchemy within the biblical texts. He published many a work on theology, with no mention of this, but the background papers and personal papers state otherwise. This, once again, is a recent finding, as this aspect has only recently come to light, being buried for some, oh, 300 years now.
Apparently, a distant relative had all the papers and sold them, in bulk, to someone in the far East or the like, in the early 90's or thereabouts. And the work is only being released, bit by bit.
I don't draw some sort of pshyic understanding out of the blue, but I do have my own various hypothesis to consider, from the standpoints and understandings that I have, of the validity of psyhcic phenomena.Meaning, I have data, that you do not have. Data..that you might not accept as data. But I do, for the reasons stated, stated many a time.
On this point, the psychic phenomena aspect it is 'apparent', that you will be impossible so satiate in any manner. It goes back to that point I mentioned earlier in the thread about internal realizations about the observer and the depth of the complexity of the human mind. I think that your personal aspect might need some staring at, on the personal level. You might need some bellybutton gazing before you could 'go there'. 🙂 Odds are, from my standpoint, you are unwilling to do so. As some are, as I mentiond in the earlier posts, for the very reasons mentioned.
It is not a circular arguement I use to put it off and personally validate my standpoint in the face of reason I am unwilling to deal with, it is merely a perspective that you seem to be unwilling to wrastle with. Right back to the 'pot-kettle-black' thing.
There is also the aspect that not all folks are created equal in terms of basic intelligence and reasoning skills, and/or capacity for discernment of reality, etc, we can all see that point. A combination of basic capacity and education on a given subject, ie ignorance does not equal stupidity, etc.
There then comes the idea and understanding in the world of psychic research, that in this aspect, not everyone is equal, in that specifc regard of capacity for realizing psychic phenomena, on the personal level, which is where (the phenomena itself) it resides.
It adds another layer of complexity to any attempt to bring it to the table of 'scientific' valididity. However, this does not invalidate the subject itself. But it does present barriers, as the bulk of people in the world of scientific investgation, do tend to be lacking in this area of understanding. Some deeply so, with the resultant bias we so evidently see in this thread.
So yeah, I think, due to the hypothesis and interesting facts and data I have come across for many a year that I am perfectly correct in my assumptions, reductions and deductions, and various hypothesis. I'm here to have the record set straight on various things that my understanding is incomplete and skewed on. (oh! maybe one thing...) So far, no such thing has happened, on any level or way, for me personally. And I tell you, I'm perfectly willing to listen to reason. I'm always willing to be wrong, and many times have been. Only a madman would be right all the time, as Jneutron has noted. Because he is insane. (the madman, not John)
All this argument does, in my eyes, is show that you are completely blind to such things. And to me, that is a sad thing. So much there to share. Too bad you can't see it. It has a tendacy to make for better people, when it comes to their final and ever evolving grasp of it. Not saying that you aren't a good person, no I_F, not at all.
It does tend to create a better and more complete understanding of the interconnectedness of it all for the given individual, and does make people far less likely to lash out, in various ways. Once again...the doorway is entirely personal...but the understanding...is universal.
This is why the buddhists tend to sit on the side of the road, so to speak, and do not engage anyone unless that person has come to them for illumination, on their own.
The Dali Lama, for instance, has spent much of his time as of recent, working with scientists of various backgrounds, physics and other areas of science..in discussions of the very nature of reality. Why?
They asked him.
It seems that Newton was brought to the post being responsible for the royal mint (head of it) due to his alchemical fame, at that time. This was used to keep people from completing a 'run' on the 'reserve' system of banking, which was only newly enacted, at that time. The thought that the famous alchemist, Newton could simply have created the silver and gold that the bank was written on the back of, but actually did not exist, was the key point of the act of propoganda. Apparently created. We do not know.
There is a story about a specific man who prevented an actual run, a business man, who on the steps of the mint no less..turned back a crowd (elite mob!) who were making an actual attempt on a run, specifically to crash the Crown. His words and attitude on those steps on that one day..was all the kept the Bank of England, and the Crown itself from crashing. The gratitude of the Crown was such that his face was put on the 50 pound note.
Newton's fame, and the validity of the principa was heavily propagandized by all involved..this includes the backers of the bank, the elite of England at the time who were involved with the Crown, and the King and his offices, and all connected, in a battle to make the crown solvent in the face of the opposition they were facing. Basically, the Principa and Newton were heavily politicized and promoted to elevate Newton and his validity.
It is possible to say that Newton might have died a realtive unknown, without this support. Apparently, Newton relished and used, and even abused the fame (re: the Royal Society, in terms of domination and control) and power he was given. He had an ego, apparently a big one. Christopher Wren, utilizing his position within the Royal society and connections with the crown, built much in the way of edifices and buildings for the Crown and bank (finacing! Debt! Money for the crown!) and was deeply connected to the Jakobites and the alchemists (The Royal Society, Boyle, Hooke, and others).....and much of the creations of his and their placements in London embody an incredible amount of sacred mumbers and formula of a purely alchemical nature. Do I have to write books here? The data is out there. All one has to do...is go looking for it.
This reserve banking system was brought to America, where it eventually left the solvency and credibility of the US Banking system as it is today.
Apparently, from the writings of that time, and records..Newton actually enjoyed catching counterfeiters. His job then as head of the mint, was to be sole judge and jury for them. He condemmed them to being drawn and quartered..slowly. The records state that he drew enjoyment from this aspect. This is not the mark of a mentally healthy man, in terms of his actions toward others. At that time, it may have ben considered, normal... but not to me.
This does not lower the importance of his work. But it does shed some light on the personal stance and mentality of the man.
Also, apparently, the bulk of his theological works, were an attempt to understand the biblical implications and depth of involvement in alchemy within the biblical texts. He published many a work on theology, with no mention of this, but the background papers and personal papers state otherwise. This, once again, is a recent finding, as this aspect has only recently come to light, being buried for some, oh, 300 years now.
Apparently, a distant relative had all the papers and sold them, in bulk, to someone in the far East or the like, in the early 90's or thereabouts. And the work is only being released, bit by bit.
I don't draw some sort of pshyic understanding out of the blue, but I do have my own various hypothesis to consider, from the standpoints and understandings that I have, of the validity of psyhcic phenomena.Meaning, I have data, that you do not have. Data..that you might not accept as data. But I do, for the reasons stated, stated many a time.
On this point, the psychic phenomena aspect it is 'apparent', that you will be impossible so satiate in any manner. It goes back to that point I mentioned earlier in the thread about internal realizations about the observer and the depth of the complexity of the human mind. I think that your personal aspect might need some staring at, on the personal level. You might need some bellybutton gazing before you could 'go there'. 🙂 Odds are, from my standpoint, you are unwilling to do so. As some are, as I mentiond in the earlier posts, for the very reasons mentioned.
It is not a circular arguement I use to put it off and personally validate my standpoint in the face of reason I am unwilling to deal with, it is merely a perspective that you seem to be unwilling to wrastle with. Right back to the 'pot-kettle-black' thing.
There is also the aspect that not all folks are created equal in terms of basic intelligence and reasoning skills, and/or capacity for discernment of reality, etc, we can all see that point. A combination of basic capacity and education on a given subject, ie ignorance does not equal stupidity, etc.
There then comes the idea and understanding in the world of psychic research, that in this aspect, not everyone is equal, in that specifc regard of capacity for realizing psychic phenomena, on the personal level, which is where (the phenomena itself) it resides.
It adds another layer of complexity to any attempt to bring it to the table of 'scientific' valididity. However, this does not invalidate the subject itself. But it does present barriers, as the bulk of people in the world of scientific investgation, do tend to be lacking in this area of understanding. Some deeply so, with the resultant bias we so evidently see in this thread.
So yeah, I think, due to the hypothesis and interesting facts and data I have come across for many a year that I am perfectly correct in my assumptions, reductions and deductions, and various hypothesis. I'm here to have the record set straight on various things that my understanding is incomplete and skewed on. (oh! maybe one thing...) So far, no such thing has happened, on any level or way, for me personally. And I tell you, I'm perfectly willing to listen to reason. I'm always willing to be wrong, and many times have been. Only a madman would be right all the time, as Jneutron has noted. Because he is insane. (the madman, not John)
All this argument does, in my eyes, is show that you are completely blind to such things. And to me, that is a sad thing. So much there to share. Too bad you can't see it. It has a tendacy to make for better people, when it comes to their final and ever evolving grasp of it. Not saying that you aren't a good person, no I_F, not at all.
It does tend to create a better and more complete understanding of the interconnectedness of it all for the given individual, and does make people far less likely to lash out, in various ways. Once again...the doorway is entirely personal...but the understanding...is universal.
This is why the buddhists tend to sit on the side of the road, so to speak, and do not engage anyone unless that person has come to them for illumination, on their own.
The Dali Lama, for instance, has spent much of his time as of recent, working with scientists of various backgrounds, physics and other areas of science..in discussions of the very nature of reality. Why?
They asked him.
You really are hungup on Newtons supposed secret pleasures - and that from a member of the species that with very little exception seems to have enjoyed a good public killing throughout the millenia.
Again - you are judging from today what was quite normal at the time - and given the opportunity of a public execution in canada or the us - i bet the 50 cents in my retirement fund that the attendance would be equal to that of any of the "reality" shows presented on TV.
But - what does it have to do with the topic?
PS - don't forget for one moment that humans are predators - with all the attendant capability to enjoy killing. That was what made us smarter - we had no natural advantage as a meat eater and predator, but we had a brain. And that is our main weapon - and what might finish us in the end.
Again - you are judging from today what was quite normal at the time - and given the opportunity of a public execution in canada or the us - i bet the 50 cents in my retirement fund that the attendance would be equal to that of any of the "reality" shows presented on TV.
But - what does it have to do with the topic?
PS - don't forget for one moment that humans are predators - with all the attendant capability to enjoy killing. That was what made us smarter - we had no natural advantage as a meat eater and predator, but we had a brain. And that is our main weapon - and what might finish us in the end.
But - what does it have to do with the topic?
Everything, Audio-kraut. It is a long and complex journey, like life itself. To each - their own level of realization, understanding, and acceptance. I hope we all understand that the world is not all black and white. A billion shades of grey are available to peruse and contemplate, to find what we each seem to need to complete our personal journey. And the journey's revelations are ever changing, not written in stone. The jourrney affects and changes us, hopefully for the better. And sometimes, we get to affect and illuminate the journey of others, and share in our revelations. Hopefully, we all try to do this in a positive, humane way. To try and help and raise our brother up, so to speak. As we hope to do for ourselves. Centered and balanced discussion, we hope. We are only a complex and hopefully thinking monkey for the most part, trying to get somewhere....else.
I was only using Newton, to show that things that seem written in stone, are rarely what they seem to be, after a open minded and more complete investigation. New information tends to shed new light and create new avenues of exploration in life, in science, and in physics. Open minded investigation is key to that.
Essentially....Back to John Curl's Signature: "Condemnation, without examination..is predjudice"
Thanks for the link. New information! More examination! 😀
Everything, Audio-kraut. It is a long and complex journey, like life itself. To each - their own level of realization, understanding, and acceptance. I hope we all understand that the world is not all black and white. A billion shades of grey are available to peruse and contemplate, to find what we each seem to need to complete our personal journey. And the journey's revelations are ever changing, not written in stone. The jourrney affects and changes us, hopefully for the better. And sometimes, we get to affect and illuminate the journey of others, and share in our revelations. Hopefully, we all try to do this in a positive, humane way. To try and help and raise our brother up, so to speak. As we hope to do for ourselves. Centered and balanced discussion, we hope. We are only a complex and hopefully thinking monkey for the most part, trying to get somewhere....else.
I was only using Newton, to show that things that seem written in stone, are rarely what they seem to be, after a open minded and more complete investigation. New information tends to shed new light and create new avenues of exploration in life, in science, and in physics. Open minded investigation is key to that.
Essentially....Back to John Curl's Signature: "Condemnation, without examination..is predjudice"
Thanks for the link. New information! More examination! 😀
Many people with creative minds suffer from dyslexia (word blindness). The reason their papers are not full of spelling/gramatical errors is because they get them proof read. Theres no magic there and no corrallation between the ability to think logically and creatively and some anal desire to see everything spelt correctly. Get a life.
Shoog
Shoog
Excerpts from "The Secret Life of Newton" I gather? As far as counterfeiters are concerned; drawing and quartering seems fine. I can think of a few people this might benefit... "It's a good thing"... perhaps a few other CEO's, Bin Laden, Kim Il Sun. Hell, I got some new Heinkle for Christmas... I'd be willing to try my hand at it.
Newton was perhaps a bit more clever than his predecessors and contemporaries, a little bit of "G-work" and "honey-do's" kept him outta the slammer, and on the "A list". Being reclusive and obsessive by nature, I doubt he relished in these tasks. But if he did... cool.
Old Newt' was smart enough to know what many of us can take for granted.... nothing is free.
😎
Newton was perhaps a bit more clever than his predecessors and contemporaries, a little bit of "G-work" and "honey-do's" kept him outta the slammer, and on the "A list". Being reclusive and obsessive by nature, I doubt he relished in these tasks. But if he did... cool.
Old Newt' was smart enough to know what many of us can take for granted.... nothing is free.
😎
Spelling, secret lives, psychic phenomena, personal journeys, buddhists and a link to dark matter. All on this page.
This thread is closed. Any questions or comments can be emailed to me directly.
I suggest you continue over here where straying from topic is welcome.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1100858#post1100858
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