Ed- I'll happily stand to be corrected, ('cause I've said this more than a few times already) but my experience to date would suggest that any of the full sized double mouthed horn or BVRs might have trouble fully integrating their output at the listening position a room your size is likely to offer.
My own personal take on FE126 vs FE127:
Having experimented a bit with FE126En and the Brynn BVR with recommended series R, I can certainly understand your resistance to passive correction after the amp. I honestly forget what value was required to mitigate the up-tilted response in this enclosure, but it took much of 'jump' factor out of this driver that IMHO is its big advantage over the FE127En.
Of course as Bob Brines and numerous others have noted, for those migrating to their computers as file servers and system front end, there is the promising option of performing all of the necessary BSC/EQ etc in the digitial domain. As I'm using an iMac, I've yet to take the time find a convenient plug-in for iTunes with a sufficiently comprehensive graphic or parametric EQ to accomplish this. Since I’ve already started to copy my CD’s library into iTunes, I’d really rather not need to run either different software or outboard DSP hardware for such function.
The little Jolida is a quite nice sounding little unit, and even if the factory mods include triode conversion, you should still have plenty of power for designs incorporating either the FE126 or FE127. (if it doesn't, you might want to consider it - made a huge improvement on my EL34 based 302). Fostex rated specs are famously "subject to field verification", but if you take the rated sensitivity of both at face value, there is only a 2dB difference between these drivers, which at the end of the day might not be a huge factor .
In a small room, and with adequate power available, it could be considered that the lower sensitivity of the FE127 is compensated by the wider range of enclosure design options. For example, it's no big secret that I'm quite fond of the Fonken (family), most notably the stand mounted original version.
But of course, they might not be everyone's cup of tea, so if you've already decided on the FE126E, I'd like to suggest that for your room the Frugelhorn might make more sense, particularly if you have corners available. Having built over a dozen pairs between them, I can say the Fonken is the easier of the two.
My own personal take on FE126 vs FE127:
Having experimented a bit with FE126En and the Brynn BVR with recommended series R, I can certainly understand your resistance to passive correction after the amp. I honestly forget what value was required to mitigate the up-tilted response in this enclosure, but it took much of 'jump' factor out of this driver that IMHO is its big advantage over the FE127En.
Of course as Bob Brines and numerous others have noted, for those migrating to their computers as file servers and system front end, there is the promising option of performing all of the necessary BSC/EQ etc in the digitial domain. As I'm using an iMac, I've yet to take the time find a convenient plug-in for iTunes with a sufficiently comprehensive graphic or parametric EQ to accomplish this. Since I’ve already started to copy my CD’s library into iTunes, I’d really rather not need to run either different software or outboard DSP hardware for such function.
The little Jolida is a quite nice sounding little unit, and even if the factory mods include triode conversion, you should still have plenty of power for designs incorporating either the FE126 or FE127. (if it doesn't, you might want to consider it - made a huge improvement on my EL34 based 302). Fostex rated specs are famously "subject to field verification", but if you take the rated sensitivity of both at face value, there is only a 2dB difference between these drivers, which at the end of the day might not be a huge factor .
In a small room, and with adequate power available, it could be considered that the lower sensitivity of the FE127 is compensated by the wider range of enclosure design options. For example, it's no big secret that I'm quite fond of the Fonken (family), most notably the stand mounted original version.
But of course, they might not be everyone's cup of tea, so if you've already decided on the FE126E, I'd like to suggest that for your room the Frugelhorn might make more sense, particularly if you have corners available. Having built over a dozen pairs between them, I can say the Fonken is the easier of the two.
Chris,
I really appreciate the detailed reply. I was/am concerned about the small room being too small for the double horn, although I am dissapointed I appreciate you verifying this.
I have considered the Fonken line and the 127. This may be the way I ultimately go. I have owned a pair of Ed's horns with the 126. I knew I would regret selling them and sure enough, I do. Since I have already heard the 126 in a BLH I may have to go with the Fonken simply for variety.
WRT the JoLida, I have heard of people converting them to SE, I would like to try it assuming I could set it back up as PP if I needed more power down the road. I am really enjoying the EL84 sound.
Thanks again for your response.
Best,
Ed
I really appreciate the detailed reply. I was/am concerned about the small room being too small for the double horn, although I am dissapointed I appreciate you verifying this.
I have considered the Fonken line and the 127. This may be the way I ultimately go. I have owned a pair of Ed's horns with the 126. I knew I would regret selling them and sure enough, I do. Since I have already heard the 126 in a BLH I may have to go with the Fonken simply for variety.
WRT the JoLida, I have heard of people converting them to SE, I would like to try it assuming I could set it back up as PP if I needed more power down the road. I am really enjoying the EL84 sound.
Thanks again for your response.
Best,
Ed
Hmmmm. As Chris points out, Saburo will not give of it's best in a room of that size. None of the MTM layout horns will. In the case of Saburo, I designed it with a minimum of 8ft listening distance in mind for proper integration. They need to be at least a foot away from sidewalls too.
Regarding the response, they'll be smoother in practice than the simulation shows, as I've discussed elsewhere -simulations can only model what their programming allows them to.
BVRs of the type you are refering to are inherently flatter in response than the longer path cabinets, & often can go lower for a given bulk, but this comes at a price -less gain, narrower operating window & potentially higher excursion / distortion as SPLs increase. This tends to be more of a problem for the smaller units -there will not be a Chang type of cabinet for the 126; it really can't handle that sort of load.
Regarding the response, they'll be smoother in practice than the simulation shows, as I've discussed elsewhere -simulations can only model what their programming allows them to.
BVRs of the type you are refering to are inherently flatter in response than the longer path cabinets, & often can go lower for a given bulk, but this comes at a price -less gain, narrower operating window & potentially higher excursion / distortion as SPLs increase. This tends to be more of a problem for the smaller units -there will not be a Chang type of cabinet for the 126; it really can't handle that sort of load.
Thanks Scott, I could get 8' distance between the listening chair and the speaker, but to do it the speakers would be within a foot of the rear wall. THe side wall distance requirement should not be an issue.
Best,
Ed
Best,
Ed
ebag4 said:
I'm sure that Ed S would suggest that his Horn's are not just "a(ny) BLH" (and who in their right mind would argue the point?),
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
but yes, variety is the spice of life
I think you might mean triode v/ pentode mode. It's a relatively easy circuitry revision on both the EL84 & 34 - disconnect and insulate the UL tap, and add a resistor at each output tube socket. With enough space and creativity, you probably install a switch to select between the two (just turn the amp off first)
Yup, I agree about the EL84 sound - unless pure grunt is required, I much prefer either the class A P/P or parafeed SE '84's to the EL34.
edit:
Did I forget to mention the Brynn design? One of Scott's, works very well with the FE127 (I tried with FF125K and FE126 with series R), and much preferred the '7. It's the easiest of the builds mentioned so far, and while I've yet to build my 3rd pair, I can see no reason why the flare couldn't be reversed to a corner loaded rear exit. For stability and to damp side panel resonances, fill the bottom void cavity with sand/lead shot etc., or build in steps as per the Nagaoko style.
chrisb said:
HAHA, yes, that is what I mean. That must be why I didn't get any hits when googling for converting the 102B to single ended!
Scottmoose said:
Scott:
I measured when I got home. In my room I could have the back of the Saburo 1' from the front wall, with the depth of 18" the front of the speaker would be exactly 8' from my head when seated. Do you believe 1' into the room be far enough for this design? The distance from the side walls is not a problem as my current OBs are almost 3 foot from the side wall to the center of the MTM section.
Thanks,
Ed
Ed,
Have you been reading my mind again? 🙂 Dave and Chris are working on a custom Fonken for the F120A for me as we speak.
I too very much regret ever selling my Ed Horns.
AT one time I was seriously considering building the Harveys for a space that is roughly the same size as yours - 140 SF -- but decided that they probably would work much better in a larger room. After talkking with Eddie Vaughn sometime back, I think I was pretty much sold on the single, stand mount Fonken for this room.
-- Jim
Have you been reading my mind again? 🙂 Dave and Chris are working on a custom Fonken for the F120A for me as we speak.
I too very much regret ever selling my Ed Horns.
AT one time I was seriously considering building the Harveys for a space that is roughly the same size as yours - 140 SF -- but decided that they probably would work much better in a larger room. After talkking with Eddie Vaughn sometime back, I think I was pretty much sold on the single, stand mount Fonken for this room.
-- Jim
jrebman said:
Hi Jim,
Apparently one of us is psychic, I was researching the 120 just this morning. I am still undecided on which way to go, I believe a room stretcher would probably solve many of my audio problems. If you get the Fonken for the 120 going I would very much like to hear your impressions of it.
Best,
Ed
Ed,
Well, I have to credit floobydust on AC for pointing me in the direction of the F120As. I got them and decided to trust them to Bud for the EnABLing before I even heard them -- obviously not the best way to go about things, but I had nothing to play them with anyway. I asked Dave about the feasability of altering the fonken for this driver and when he said it looked possible, I sent the drivers to him so he and Chris would have a real live pair to optimize the design with.
Bud had nothing but really, really good things to say about these drivers, and also said that they required minimal EnABLing.
So, we'll see -- I took a few calculated risks going down this path, and I think the end result will just be a matter of differences in degrees of excellence.
-- Jim
P.S. -- If you can get the F120As, get them -- they are becoming extremely rare and may not be available much longer -- at least that's what I'm told.
Well, I have to credit floobydust on AC for pointing me in the direction of the F120As. I got them and decided to trust them to Bud for the EnABLing before I even heard them -- obviously not the best way to go about things, but I had nothing to play them with anyway. I asked Dave about the feasability of altering the fonken for this driver and when he said it looked possible, I sent the drivers to him so he and Chris would have a real live pair to optimize the design with.
Bud had nothing but really, really good things to say about these drivers, and also said that they required minimal EnABLing.
So, we'll see -- I took a few calculated risks going down this path, and I think the end result will just be a matter of differences in degrees of excellence.
-- Jim
P.S. -- If you can get the F120As, get them -- they are becoming extremely rare and may not be available much longer -- at least that's what I'm told.
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