You should perhaps open the sides the sides of the cavity, it will looks a little less monolithic ?
My walnut was aromatised, i've bought it in a luthiery shop and there was parrafin on the both sides of the plates to block capillarity and regulate water penetration.
My walnut was aromatised, i've bought it in a luthiery shop and there was parrafin on the both sides of the plates to block capillarity and regulate water penetration.
That would break the W-frame operation. It is basically a dual woofer open baffle set up for opposed vibration cancellation.
Walnut baffle on the 2nd speaker hot glued up & routed over the past day.
Orion were nice looking speakers and these look like they'll be great too.
Does anybody know the reason for the change from W-frame to V-frame from Orion to LX 521? One should assume that the force cancellation would be a big advantage? I think I've read something about build complexity, but don't quite understand that.
Is there a difference in the cavity resonance and how high they can cross?
Also wondering why there is this big difference in slot opening for V/W-frame vs ripol/slob. What is the technical explanation for that? Pros and cons for the two different approaches?
Does anybody know the reason for the change from W-frame to V-frame from Orion to LX 521? One should assume that the force cancellation would be a big advantage? I think I've read something about build complexity, but don't quite understand that.
Is there a difference in the cavity resonance and how high they can cross?
Also wondering why there is this big difference in slot opening for V/W-frame vs ripol/slob. What is the technical explanation for that? Pros and cons for the two different approaches?
Thanks, I hope so! My Orions were redesigned slightly to look taller & slimmer, for the sake of my honey's tastes. (pic in first post of this thread.)
SL himself wrote this about the move from H to W frame in the Orions, then V in the 521. The key reasons, imo, are numbered (by me) :
In essence, I think SL found it hard to build the W-frame and was thinking about salability of a kit. Those were important issues for him.
It's true that the cavity resonance in the W-frame is significant. It's around 10+ dB in a fairly sharp peak at 190Hz in this dual 12" system. In my 521 clones with 10" SBAs, it's 300Hz or higher, iirc. Both V- and H-frame cavity resonances are minor or nonexistent. Still, with either a passive notch filter or DSP, the peak is not really prohibitive.
Also, I disagree about how much vibration is in the W-frame -- in all 3 of my W-frames, which were all 4-ways, the vibration from the bass section was always LESS than the vibration from the 8" low-mid on the upper baffle. I dislike the mechanical inelegance of the "bridge" solution SL came up with for the 521, and the W-frames makes vibration from the bass box a non-factor.
But to ensure minimal vibration in the mid/tweeter domes, I'm using magnet mounting for the 9.5" low-mid woofer. Its frame will not touch the front baffle at all, so its vibrations have to go through the aluminum/steel bracket + 1.5" BB plywood top plate beneath it before it can reach the baffle. Previous experiments (and the Orions) have shown this has a positive effect on overall clarity, esp at higher SPL.
Don't know enough about ripole bass operational theory vs W-frame. There has to be more pressure/loading on the cone with the latter.
The mid woofer at 10 inch may be too big. A 6.5 or 8 inch can go past 3khz while getting to 125hz open baffle. Then the sub takes over for the bottom end.
Having heard, measured, and tweaked the trial system with all the components, I think it's better than the 8" drivers I've used in the 3 previous OB 3-and 4-ways. The high bass & low mids are fuller, more detailed & dynamic. And less distorted at higher SPL. It doesn't need to go higher than 800hs, where dispersion hasn't really started to narrow, so... That Textreme driver is excellent to > 1.5 khz, imo.
More progress.
Penetrating oil applied, excess wiped, drying.
Installing the drivers took a lot of time, patience, and troubleshooting of jamming screw threads. Getting the woofers in was especially tough.
Getting the magnet mounted Satori WO24TX in required precision. The gap around between the driver frame and the baffles board is 3~4mm, enough to prevent vibration conduction & tight enough for whatever acoustic leakage to be trivial. I dispensed with putting a gasket around the driver. It's rigidly positioned & highly unlikely to shift on its own.
Wiring up the internal wiring for the speakers was quite a chore. Ditto the 8-pole Speakon plugs & banana plugs on the speaker cables. The 16 strand woven Audioquest-clone cable gifted by friend didn't make it any easier. Fingers & hands take a beating.
Finally in the studio. Each speaker weighs about 110 lbs; too much for me to lift safely. I had help getting them off the workbench, then wheeled them in on a hand cart.
Soundcare SuperSpike M8 feet in the bottom corners + the sheer weight make the speaker very stable.
Penetrating oil applied, excess wiped, drying.
Installing the drivers took a lot of time, patience, and troubleshooting of jamming screw threads. Getting the woofers in was especially tough.
Getting the magnet mounted Satori WO24TX in required precision. The gap around between the driver frame and the baffles board is 3~4mm, enough to prevent vibration conduction & tight enough for whatever acoustic leakage to be trivial. I dispensed with putting a gasket around the driver. It's rigidly positioned & highly unlikely to shift on its own.
Wiring up the internal wiring for the speakers was quite a chore. Ditto the 8-pole Speakon plugs & banana plugs on the speaker cables. The 16 strand woven Audioquest-clone cable gifted by friend didn't make it any easier. Fingers & hands take a beating.
Finally in the studio. Each speaker weighs about 110 lbs; too much for me to lift safely. I had help getting them off the workbench, then wheeled them in on a hand cart.
Soundcare SuperSpike M8 feet in the bottom corners + the sheer weight make the speaker very stable.
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Hi Dayne, your boating projects must be done for now? 😉
8" drivers I've used recently --
Scanspeak 22W8534 -- used in my 521 clones, encountered in John K's NaO Note Ii RS.
Peerless by Tymphany NE225W-08 -- used in OB/hybrid 4-way for my son
Despite the 9.5" diameter spec, the Satori effective cone area is 255cm, only marginally bigger than the 22W8534's 235cm. No surprise that the WO24TX behaves closer to an 8" than a 10". Its motor is better than most 8"s tho -- nearly 9mm Xmax, and 107-108 dB at max power in the midband. That's with full spectrum signal; with high pass at 125 Hz LR8, it should go louder in the midband.
8" drivers I've used recently --
Scanspeak 22W8534 -- used in my 521 clones, encountered in John K's NaO Note Ii RS.
Peerless by Tymphany NE225W-08 -- used in OB/hybrid 4-way for my son
Despite the 9.5" diameter spec, the Satori effective cone area is 255cm, only marginally bigger than the 22W8534's 235cm. No surprise that the WO24TX behaves closer to an 8" than a 10". Its motor is better than most 8"s tho -- nearly 9mm Xmax, and 107-108 dB at max power in the midband. That's with full spectrum signal; with high pass at 125 Hz LR8, it should go louder in the midband.
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Re 8" drivers -- 2 more: Seas W22EX001& Dayton Audio RS225-8 (aluminum)
Finally got the grills done. An hour before delivery this evening. 😉
Finally got the grills done. An hour before delivery this evening. 😉
Nothing like just in time!! 😎 They look great! I'm looking forward to the report on how the new owner likes them over time.
It's true that I've given up my boat painting career for other pursuits! For now that's mostly meant working hard at my new job rather than having fun with audio projects (although the income has been very welcome).
That said, I'm considering going to the next phase with the just for fun OB project I'd started, which experimented with how bad the great leap strategy could be (SB 15OB150 straight to a CDC tweeter, with a miniDSP Flex 8). To my surprise that was no where near as bad as I was expecting, but now I'd like to drop the woofer to the floor and add an 8" or so driver. The W024TX would I'm sure be amazing, but not the current budget, which starts at something like the Dayton PA200 and maxes out at the 8NMB420 (around $200/driver).
It's true that I've given up my boat painting career for other pursuits! For now that's mostly meant working hard at my new job rather than having fun with audio projects (although the income has been very welcome).
That said, I'm considering going to the next phase with the just for fun OB project I'd started, which experimented with how bad the great leap strategy could be (SB 15OB150 straight to a CDC tweeter, with a miniDSP Flex 8). To my surprise that was no where near as bad as I was expecting, but now I'd like to drop the woofer to the floor and add an 8" or so driver. The W024TX would I'm sure be amazing, but not the current budget, which starts at something like the Dayton PA200 and maxes out at the 8NMB420 (around $200/driver).
Sounds good!
You might consider the WO24P, which also gets high praise, but is a lot cheaper than the TX. Or in keeping with the high sensitivity woofer, try the SBA Nero-8MWN400D. Cut from the same cloth as the 12MWN700D, which worked so well in my Kissa music cafe speakers. (I'm still trying to figure out the other components & design to go with that 12" driver.) Specs & FR look good, and price should be well under USD200.
Thanks for those suggestions, Mike!
Remind me what your final driver stack and XO frequencies were for your build?
Remind me what your final driver stack and XO frequencies were for your build?
Per speaker:
Other system components:
There's fantastic clarity & dynamics through the entire audible band -- to the limits of my hearing tolerance. Of course, it's only a ~3500 cubic foot room. The destination room is over 30,000 cf.
- SBA SB34SWPL76-4 x2 -- wired in series, driven by 2x300W Eric A amps bridged to 600W
- Satori WO24TX-4 (they were out of 8 ohm version -- no difference in my active build) -- driven by 3e Audio A7 mono amp (180W)
- Bliesma M74B
- Satori TW29BN -- both beryllium domes driven by 3e Audio 5se stereo amp (~70Wx2 into 8R before clipping)
- XO: 125Hz LR8, 1KHz Butterworth 6 dB/oct, 4kHz LR4
Other system components:
- Wiim Ultra
- miniDSP Flex 8
- SB Audience NERO-18SW1900D x2 -- nude subs, temporarily on wooden cradles. run off Wiim sub output with XO 55Hz, main speakers run full range
- 2x300W Eric A amps bridged to 600W -- 2 of them, 1 for each sub
There's fantastic clarity & dynamics through the entire audible band -- to the limits of my hearing tolerance. Of course, it's only a ~3500 cubic foot room. The destination room is over 30,000 cf.
Thanks. 🙏 Mark found & brought me the finished walnut that made the front baffle possible. And, as already mentioned, there's a plethora of carpentry mistakes I managed to mostly hide.
After installing them the first day, I was dismayed at the sound with the config file that worked so well in my studio -- overblown bass, uneven treble, etc... . I shouldn't have been surprised. My studio is very well damped, with a lot of bass traps, and well optimized for loudspeakers for the room size. Mark's room has a single wee carpet in front of the speakers and is highly reverberant with hard surfaces in the 31,000cf volume.
Went back yesterday, spent several hours remeasuring, using REW auto-EQ to accelerate the driver PEQ process, and created a new config with the same XO frequencies & slopes. The end result was excellent. It sounds now much like it did in my studio -- great dynamics, no compression, seemingly unlimited power/loudness, uber-detail, flat to 25 Hz, -4 dB at 20 Hz (the benefits of a big room!), amazingly clarity everywhere but especially in the mids. I read someone's post about how the M74B can reach 114 dB output in its midband without distortion >1~2%. I don't doubt it. We listened together about 12-14' away with peaks reaching 105 dB at our position. Grinning the whole time.
Elsewhere in the room, with any decent recording it sounds like there's a live band in that corner, with the reverb not being harsh but natural, as in a hall or small church.
Just before I packed up to leave, we hooked up the SBA SB34SWPL76-4 sub drivers and set them in the crude cradles nude, placed them somewhat randomly near the main speakers. Driven by two more of the 2x300W Eric A amps in bridged mode, fed by sub output from the Wiim Ultra, XO 55 Hz at the default LR4 slope. Main speaker signal full bandwidth a la Geddes. Without any EQ, the nude sub drivers had to be set to +15 dB to have any effect. With most music, it made little to no difference but with any deep bass, the visceral impact and vibrations in floor boards increased significantly.. This will benefit from further tuning & improved mounting scheme. Later.
For now, both Mark & I feel this project is a win. These are by far the best speakers I've designed & built so far. Not without flaws, but with strengths that for now make them trivial. (The tweeter position is likely too high for optimal seated listening with the Satori TW29BN, whose directivity starts narrowing quite early; Bilesma T25B may have been a better choice.)
I have no measurements to post at this time but will add them later. Too busy scrambling for a trip -- a classical music festival in a rural town that has apparently become a center for classical music training. Classical is not my usual thing, but a friend who used to work with me got the gig to record the concerts & got me tix so....
Thanks for providing all of those details, Mike!
I know that one of the goals of this project was to play really loudly in a large space. If that weren’t necessary, I’m curious how well you think this setup would work if you skipped the Bliesma M74B and took the WO24TX-4 higher, crossing to a tweeter between 1500 and 2000 Hz?
Nothing against the M74B per se, other than the price. ;-)
I know that one of the goals of this project was to play really loudly in a large space. If that weren’t necessary, I’m curious how well you think this setup would work if you skipped the Bliesma M74B and took the WO24TX-4 higher, crossing to a tweeter between 1500 and 2000 Hz?
Nothing against the M74B per se, other than the price. ;-)