I actually did try this at 1.5khz LR4 between WO24TX & the Satori BE tweeter. It sounded okay, iirc, but it wasn't quite enough to convince me. I might have saved sweeps, can check later. I can't recall exactly how it sounded.
Another option I tried was the 18sound 14x10 horn + SB Audience 44cdn-pk compression driver. I recall that sounded excellent. XO was around 1~1.2 kHz LR4. This without a tweeter on top; it got quite directional >5-6 khz but was ok close to axis.
I'm sure you're right on that!
I was interested to read that Bliesma has released a silk dome version, the T34S-4. Pretty good chance that would be my cup of tea. Hificompass gave a positive review.
How low could you take the Satori WO24TX in open baffle? Although from what I've read it would do great in a regular cabinet as well.
I was interested to read that Bliesma has released a silk dome version, the T34S-4. Pretty good chance that would be my cup of tea. Hificompass gave a positive review.
How low could you take the Satori WO24TX in open baffle? Although from what I've read it would do great in a regular cabinet as well.
Hello Mikessi, big progress and it looks awesome 🙂 your are a skilly wood worker... Hope the mate will be happy.
Do you think it can be made with sligthy different size of drivers for the 8" and mid to treble ?
I know the first null is about the size of the driver and the length of the shortcut pass, but I wondered if instead of the M74 for a less powerfull and cheaper version, with sligthy different cut offs I could swap it with a NE149W 5"1/4 unit (Mister Linkwitz used a 3" here between the treble and the mid-bass ?
Something like a 12" instead the 8" and a 5" instead the 3" ?
Thanks
Do you think it can be made with sligthy different size of drivers for the 8" and mid to treble ?
I know the first null is about the size of the driver and the length of the shortcut pass, but I wondered if instead of the M74 for a less powerfull and cheaper version, with sligthy different cut offs I could swap it with a NE149W 5"1/4 unit (Mister Linkwitz used a 3" here between the treble and the mid-bass ?
Something like a 12" instead the 8" and a 5" instead the 3" ?
Thanks
I personally would not use the WO24TX as a primary OB bass driver. Fs 26Hs is nice but Xmax 17.5mm p-p looks limiting. You're right it works fine ported or even sealed, with EQ.
Sure.
I would like to try the SBA nero-12mwn700n 12" woofers 80 to 6~800 Hz, with big sub below and any of several different different drivers above.
I'm starting to move away from drivers as small as 5" for frequencies below say 1-1.5 kHz. They cannot keep up with larger VC drivers -- distortion rises & power response is harder to keep linear as SPL is increased & they simply cannot provide enough output. The dynamic aspect of pro drivers and big domes like the m74b is hard to beat.
A planar driver like old NEO8 or 10 with WG on both sides could be a viable dipole match for a pro 12".
I guess I've drunk the "dynamics is critical" coolaid. There something utterly involving about loudspeaker that can play loudly effortlessly. Only possible if there is enough dynamic headroom through the entire FR. And I live in a rural area where neighbors are far enough away that I have the luxury of playing music at any volume my ear can tolerate. 😅
If a 5"1/4 could handle open baffle, 500 hz to 1500 hz, it is nice enough for my moddest spl needs. I have to re read @Juhazi thread who used an open 12" as mid-bass, he crossed at 600hz iirc but has involved his filtering by iterating process. But indeed with modest hifi drivers with low Xmax, not an easy thing... At least test are less expensive than making a cabinet for a PoC.
Yup Neo 10 is tempting ! 🙂
Yup Neo 10 is tempting ! 🙂
BTW, the B&C 8NDL51 is a darling among high efficiency 8" driver lovers. But it might make too much noise (chuffing) when used OB. OTOH, for more modest SPL needs, it might be perfect OB 300~1500Hz.
https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/woofers/rosso-6mw150d/ -- another possibility for the same range, Can probably cross higher due to better dispersion of smaller diameter cone. Should be pretty dynamic -- 150W AES, 94 dB/W sensitivity.
https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/woofers/rosso-6mw150d/ -- another possibility for the same range, Can probably cross higher due to better dispersion of smaller diameter cone. Should be pretty dynamic -- 150W AES, 94 dB/W sensitivity.
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One aspect of my DMH2 (dipole monopole hybrid #2 -- have to give it a moniker to refer to it easily) no one commented on is the magnet mount for the WO24TX:
The machined aluminum 3-part clamp add-on cost Mark CA$550 for the pair. This from a friend who's a master machinist. Would have been pricier otherwise. The black painted steel bracket was created by Mark, who is a master welder and uses a 4x6' bed plasma cutter. This scheme really works! You can feel a fair bit of vibration if you touch any part of the WO24TX frame while music is playing at moderately loud volume. Move your fingers to the baffle board right next to the driver & the vibration level drops dramatically. So the magnet mount reduces the vibration transmitted by the WO24TX into the baffle, and the dual-opposed sub drivers in the W-frame OB "bass bin" reduces the vibrations from those drivers as well. There's very little vibration felt on the top panel of the bass bin even when powerful deep bass is playing.
I'm fairly certain all this vibration control is part & parcel of the clean effortlessly dynamic quality of these speakers.
The machined aluminum 3-part clamp add-on cost Mark CA$550 for the pair. This from a friend who's a master machinist. Would have been pricier otherwise. The black painted steel bracket was created by Mark, who is a master welder and uses a 4x6' bed plasma cutter. This scheme really works! You can feel a fair bit of vibration if you touch any part of the WO24TX frame while music is playing at moderately loud volume. Move your fingers to the baffle board right next to the driver & the vibration level drops dramatically. So the magnet mount reduces the vibration transmitted by the WO24TX into the baffle, and the dual-opposed sub drivers in the W-frame OB "bass bin" reduces the vibrations from those drivers as well. There's very little vibration felt on the top panel of the bass bin even when powerful deep bass is playing.
I'm fairly certain all this vibration control is part & parcel of the clean effortlessly dynamic quality of these speakers.
Are the vibrations you felt in the frame constructive or destructive? Are those vibrations, once terminated to a baffle, damped to the point of not mattering at the expense of some mutual baffle vibrations?
Is it all just to justify fancy magnet mounting schemes?
Is it all just to justify fancy magnet mounting schemes?
😅 It could well be that I have a need to justify the cost & effort.
But it's also based on what others have noticed & tried -- starting with S. Linkwitz in his earlier Orion design, which I built.
It's not possible for me to say whether the vibrations are constructive or destructive. But reducing them in panels on which drivers are mounted is basic to our hobby. The bass bin acts as a vibration sink, which explains the low baffle vibration.
My 521 copies suffer from too much vibration in the top baffle coming not from the W-frame dual opposed 10" woofers but from the 8" 120~1khz driver mounted to that baffle. In direct A/B comparison with the DMH2, the 521 clones develop some harshness and burring in mids/highs as volume is cranked to >100 dB. Since the bass box construction technique of the 2 speakers is the same, I blame the vibration from the 8" driver.
The B&C 8NDL51 might work very well on top of my SB 15OB350, for pretty much the 300-1500 range you called out.
I've never been excited about angular driver bezels. So these are supposed to sound excellent?
That rosso-6mw150d is a bit smaller than I was thinking, but under $100 is certainly appealing.
Interesting conversation about the vibration.
???
Oh I guess you mean the shape of the driver frame? Yeah that is a PITA, for sure.
There's also the Nero-10mwn700d, maybe won't quite do1.5khz Or 8mwn400d -- has slightly smoother FR, about the smallest of that series, iirc.
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Yes, exactly. The hex and octo bezels are a bit of a bummer. Seems like a great driver, though.
What exactly did you change in the XOs going from your home studio to the client's much larger, less dumped space?
What exactly did you change in the XOs going from your home studio to the client's much larger, less dumped space?
Basically started from scratch. Remeasued every driver & EQd each one, then set the levels, plugged in XO settings, the tweaked by ear & more measurements. Way less boost in bass drivers, higher low mid level, higher mid dome level ( from -9 to -5 dB), higher tweeter level ( from -3 dB to 0).
I'm glad you didn't design this as a passive system! Imagine how painful that would have been. Yet another confirmation of the impact of the room on the system.
I'm curious how you hooked this up (and sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread). Your miniDSP Flex 8 would be fully occupied by the 4 channels x 2 speakers. Did you split the subwoofer signal off from the W-frame channels?
I'm curious how you hooked this up (and sorry if I missed this earlier in the thread). Your miniDSP Flex 8 would be fully occupied by the 4 channels x 2 speakers. Did you split the subwoofer signal off from the W-frame channels?
LR4 means the sub signal is down -6dB at 55Hz. So they don't get full strength signal from the Wiim till probably 45 Hz or lower. I have not tuned them properly Geddes style yet. And they're not EQd, just run at +15dB higher level (in Wiim sub setting) than the mains. Even so, their output is audibly lower than the mains woofers and generally are not audible. Until you turn them off.
It's temporary. I'll measure, reposition etc and try EQ with an added miniDSP 2x4HD.
Re -- passive: agreed. All the systems Ive built in the last few years have been active, and they've worked out well in their final environments.
My studio sounds better than most normal rooms, and most speakers sound at least decent there. But the higher damping and lower reverb does mean it's different from most rooms in most homes. So speakers tuned in my studio usually need at least some readjustment elsewhere. Mark's room is the most different of any of the spaces my speakers have gone into.
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So the Wiim Ultra controls the system volume and... the Flex 8 volume control is set at a fixed value? Or can you bypass its volume control? (Not sure what a la Geddes means here).
Wiim has an analog sub output whose output is synced to the mains. It's fixed LR4, which generally works fine, and you have the option to have a high pass LR4 filter at the same XO frequency on the mains or let the mains run full bandwidth. I'm doing the latter.
Geddes multiple subs approach:
https://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html?m=1
Geddes multiple subs approach:
https://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html?m=1