Shocking how the beryllium diaphragm more the doubles the price of those Radians, dayneger! Without any experience of Radian drivers, which admittedly have strong a rep, I'd be hesitant to spend that kind of $. Coax also locks you in -- what if you like the tweeter but not the woofers, or vice versa? Just a thought...
🤣 Cutie, huh?! It sure sounds impressive but I'd need a strapping young lad to hoist that thing around. Haven't tried plugging in specs to check but what size enclosure would be needed to get the most from it? And shipping across the border would be a crush. I'm guessing with the exchange rate, upwards of CA$4000 to land 2. I have to mention it to Mark, but both price & implementation seem problematic.
With the Radians at least you can start with the much more affordable Al and upgrade to the Be later if desired. I have no inside knowledge of this, but I'd be guessing they're working on a textreme diaphragm right now. Not arguing that this is a superior path, just presenting an alternative approach that has its own merits... coax are simple visually (WAF) and this one should have great dynamic range and directivity if implemented well with the miniDSP Flex 8.
The suggestion of the IB-24 was a little tongue in cheek, but it does seem like it could move a heck of a lot of air. Not sure you'd need 2 with that Vd, 93 db and >1000 W RMS power handling? 🙂
I'd also consider a big Rhythmik servo sub for the lower registers... I like the way my medium-sized sub stops on a musical dime.
The suggestion of the IB-24 was a little tongue in cheek, but it does seem like it could move a heck of a lot of air. Not sure you'd need 2 with that Vd, 93 db and >1000 W RMS power handling? 🙂
I'd also consider a big Rhythmik servo sub for the lower registers... I like the way my medium-sized sub stops on a musical dime.
Lots of good points about the Radian coaxes. I need to study them more closely.
Rhythmic subs, of course! I looked at their site when I first read about your sub project & was impressed. The site not well laid out, and I found it difficult to sort through options, features, etc. And whether they service Canadians. Will have to study again.
Rhythmic subs, of course! I looked at their site when I first read about your sub project & was impressed. The site not well laid out, and I found it difficult to sort through options, features, etc. And whether they service Canadians. Will have to study again.
If someone wants to build an OB system with a coax mid+tweeter type driver, check out projects by Perry Marshall. He is a member of this site and has posted about them on here. He uses very nice looking wood slabs (a section of a tree) as baffles. I have heard some of his projects and they are good sounding.
Agreed, it's a monster. Personally, I am able to resist the temptation to purchase any driver that is this heavy (100 pounds). It's just not very practical.
I'm not inclined to argue much about heavy objects, but I'm able to carry 2 packed check bags to the airline counter. I've moved ranges, dishwashers, and refrigerators into place with hand trucks. People buy pianos and pool tables. I even have friends who can help if properly bribed, like getting a 400 lb sofa into the house. Unless you need to sprint up/down stairs with your subs every day, putting them on casters or floor sliders makes them pretty easy to handle in many audio spaces once mounted.
Recently I read about a fellow who installed one or two monster IB drivers into his fireplace--seems like a great use for a pile of bricks I never use! 😎
All that said, I have no idea whether these monster drivers actually sound good when integrated into a high-end music system.
@CharlieLaub -- was any DSP delay applied to compensate for the distance between main speakers & subs in that big house setup?
An update, 2+ months after this project began.
The plan that developed at the start was based on our assessment of the acoustics in Mark's space (highly reverberant, large volume) and listening to his current audio systems in that space. Those audio systems included mostly vintage gear: a set of tube mono amps & preamp, a Naim NAIT, a Wiim Pro streamer + JBL L112 & Electro-Voice Sentry IV speakers. The EV Sentry IV were compromised by a damaged tweeter compression driver on one speaker. Even the undamaged one by itself sounded poor to me: disjointed, kind of incoherent & loud. The JBL L112 through the NAIT sounded much better, a bit bright without any deep bass, flat (imaging wise) and in your face but still enjoyable in its own way.
But we'd heard nothing else in there.
I decided it was important to do a trial run of my OB speaker system there before embarking on any specific path. I just hadn't had any experience with such a big space.
So my LX521-inspired speakers, Buckeye/Hypex NC252MP 8-ch amp, miniDSP 4x10HD with all the cabling was transferred to Mark's place & set up alongside the other gear. I brought along a laptop & UMIK to get some hard measurements of both my system as well as his in the space.
The speakers were pulled out about 4-5' from the wall, at Mark's default location for expedience.
A stack of cushions from unused chairs in the now unused summer room was laid across the floor in front of the speakers to help tame the reflections for a while. They are stacked on a sofa on the right in the above pic.
This pic shows the listening position and the vaulted ceiling.
Several conclusions were reached at the end of 3+ hours of listening, measuring, comparing & tweaking.
1. The OB system had plenty of bass, albeit not quite as well defined in my much smaller studio, with virtually flat extension to 30Hz, and down only -6dB at 25 Hz. This was without any adjustment of the PEQ & quite unexpected. In comparison to the L112s, the upper bass was also much more full bodied & authentic sounding (to us).
2. The spacious soundstage depth & size of the dipole effect was obvious & much appreciated.
3. The OB system sounded both more detailed and smoother despite being more laid back in many ways.
4. The reverb wasn't really intrusive at low & med levels (perhaps 90dB SPL) but became quite harsh and more evident as volume was increased. There may be a step-like turning point beyond which we suddenly hear the increased reverb as intrusive. It may also be the rising distortion of the system that is exacerbated by the reverb.
The plan that developed at the start was based on our assessment of the acoustics in Mark's space (highly reverberant, large volume) and listening to his current audio systems in that space. Those audio systems included mostly vintage gear: a set of tube mono amps & preamp, a Naim NAIT, a Wiim Pro streamer + JBL L112 & Electro-Voice Sentry IV speakers. The EV Sentry IV were compromised by a damaged tweeter compression driver on one speaker. Even the undamaged one by itself sounded poor to me: disjointed, kind of incoherent & loud. The JBL L112 through the NAIT sounded much better, a bit bright without any deep bass, flat (imaging wise) and in your face but still enjoyable in its own way.
But we'd heard nothing else in there.
I decided it was important to do a trial run of my OB speaker system there before embarking on any specific path. I just hadn't had any experience with such a big space.
So my LX521-inspired speakers, Buckeye/Hypex NC252MP 8-ch amp, miniDSP 4x10HD with all the cabling was transferred to Mark's place & set up alongside the other gear. I brought along a laptop & UMIK to get some hard measurements of both my system as well as his in the space.
The speakers were pulled out about 4-5' from the wall, at Mark's default location for expedience.
A stack of cushions from unused chairs in the now unused summer room was laid across the floor in front of the speakers to help tame the reflections for a while. They are stacked on a sofa on the right in the above pic.
This pic shows the listening position and the vaulted ceiling.
Several conclusions were reached at the end of 3+ hours of listening, measuring, comparing & tweaking.
1. The OB system had plenty of bass, albeit not quite as well defined in my much smaller studio, with virtually flat extension to 30Hz, and down only -6dB at 25 Hz. This was without any adjustment of the PEQ & quite unexpected. In comparison to the L112s, the upper bass was also much more full bodied & authentic sounding (to us).
2. The spacious soundstage depth & size of the dipole effect was obvious & much appreciated.
3. The OB system sounded both more detailed and smoother despite being more laid back in many ways.
4. The reverb wasn't really intrusive at low & med levels (perhaps 90dB SPL) but became quite harsh and more evident as volume was increased. There may be a step-like turning point beyond which we suddenly hear the increased reverb as intrusive. It may also be the rising distortion of the system that is exacerbated by the reverb.
My system was left at Mark's for him to keep listening & comparing. Some days later, he expressed his desire to go full-on OB into the bass with the new system. The quality and naturalness of the bass from my system convinced him that a scaled up version would satisfy him fully.
The new config would use the same SBA SB34SWPL76-4 sub drivers chosen originally but in a dual-opposed Linkwitz W-config like my OBs.
The rest of the system would remain unchanged --
Low Mid: SBA W024TX for the mid
High Mid: Satori MW13TX
Tweeter: Aurum Cantus AST2650 with shallow waveguide on both sides.
------------
Tweeter, if 3-way: If the WO24TX behaves well enough past 1kHz, Satori TW29TXNWG Textreme. The reviews of the Beryllium WG guide version in both Audioxpress & Hificompass state they are good as low as 1kHz, and there's no reason to believe the Textreme version would be much different. The back tweeter would be the non-waveguide version -- Satori TW29TXN, which is shallow enough not to require cosmetic adjustments for the hole which might end up having to go through the baffle board with the deeper WG tweeter.
A pair of SB Audience NERO-18SW1900D was added to the mix. These would be in sealed undersized boxes with heavy DSP to extend response down to 20Hz. 1900W, 17.5mm Xmax & 34 Hz Fs promise great SPL way down low. They would only run from 50Hz down. It's Mark's insurance for undistorted authoritative deep bass at any volume. There would be little or no detriment to the dipole effect; our hearing is too compromised down that low. The initial plan is to run each of these subs with a bridged 2x300W class-D amp from @Erica.C We might have to work out another crossover as well, depending on whether the system ends up 3 or 4 way.
MiniDSP Flex 8 for DSP crossover + Wiim Ultimate for streaming & preamp role.
The new config would use the same SBA SB34SWPL76-4 sub drivers chosen originally but in a dual-opposed Linkwitz W-config like my OBs.
The rest of the system would remain unchanged --
Low Mid: SBA W024TX for the mid
High Mid: Satori MW13TX
Tweeter: Aurum Cantus AST2650 with shallow waveguide on both sides.
------------
Tweeter, if 3-way: If the WO24TX behaves well enough past 1kHz, Satori TW29TXNWG Textreme. The reviews of the Beryllium WG guide version in both Audioxpress & Hificompass state they are good as low as 1kHz, and there's no reason to believe the Textreme version would be much different. The back tweeter would be the non-waveguide version -- Satori TW29TXN, which is shallow enough not to require cosmetic adjustments for the hole which might end up having to go through the baffle board with the deeper WG tweeter.
A pair of SB Audience NERO-18SW1900D was added to the mix. These would be in sealed undersized boxes with heavy DSP to extend response down to 20Hz. 1900W, 17.5mm Xmax & 34 Hz Fs promise great SPL way down low. They would only run from 50Hz down. It's Mark's insurance for undistorted authoritative deep bass at any volume. There would be little or no detriment to the dipole effect; our hearing is too compromised down that low. The initial plan is to run each of these subs with a bridged 2x300W class-D amp from @Erica.C We might have to work out another crossover as well, depending on whether the system ends up 3 or 4 way.
MiniDSP Flex 8 for DSP crossover + Wiim Ultimate for streaming & preamp role.
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Horny developments:
I discussed this project with Mike L, an old speaker building audio enthusiast buddy. In particular the intrusion of the reverb at higher volumes & Mark & his wife's relucntance to add any significant acoustic damping to the room. Mike's immediate take was: Horns for the higher frequencies.
Horns would reduce spurious projection of higher frequencies into the cavernous room and cut down on the reverb. Mike believes the primary benefits of dipole dispersion happens from around 50Hz to maybe 600-1000Hz. The fact is that he has built multiple OB systems and experimented with numerous horns. His latest experiment is three 15" woofers in a simple OB with a 24" SEOS on top. Says it sounds fantastic.
Gave me pause. Could I get the main benefits of OB dipole + reduce reverb with a horn crossed at 1~1.5 kHz above the 9.5" Textreme driver?
This path had to be pursued.
I happen to have pairs of B&C DE250-8 & Eminence N151M 1" compression drivers along with a pair of B-52 PHRN-1014 10" x 14" 90x40 Horn that fits them. A quick test of the N151M on that horn showed it could be EQ'd for pretty flat response from 1kHz onward with quite low distortion at 100 dB SPL. So...
This B-52 horn + the above drivers might be OK down to 1kHz; need more tests for distortion at the lower frequencies.
But are the above CDs good enough? A quick hunt through Solen's catalog showed up a SB Audience in stock, with promising numbers & features: ROSSO-44CDN-PK
And someone pointed out a nice looking anodized aluminum FaitalPRO STH100 80x70 horn at PE that works down to 1.4 kHz. Shipping to Canada is insanely pricey right now, but someone I know is heading up in a week or 2 and will bring them up for me.
So the stage is set for comparison between CB + horn vs full OB at Mark's place. This means building the OB bass bins + w/ pairs of tops for the upper frequencies. They only need to be functional, not beautiful so it's not that much of a hardship.
We'll see which works best here.
I discussed this project with Mike L, an old speaker building audio enthusiast buddy. In particular the intrusion of the reverb at higher volumes & Mark & his wife's relucntance to add any significant acoustic damping to the room. Mike's immediate take was: Horns for the higher frequencies.
Horns would reduce spurious projection of higher frequencies into the cavernous room and cut down on the reverb. Mike believes the primary benefits of dipole dispersion happens from around 50Hz to maybe 600-1000Hz. The fact is that he has built multiple OB systems and experimented with numerous horns. His latest experiment is three 15" woofers in a simple OB with a 24" SEOS on top. Says it sounds fantastic.
Gave me pause. Could I get the main benefits of OB dipole + reduce reverb with a horn crossed at 1~1.5 kHz above the 9.5" Textreme driver?
This path had to be pursued.
I happen to have pairs of B&C DE250-8 & Eminence N151M 1" compression drivers along with a pair of B-52 PHRN-1014 10" x 14" 90x40 Horn that fits them. A quick test of the N151M on that horn showed it could be EQ'd for pretty flat response from 1kHz onward with quite low distortion at 100 dB SPL. So...
This B-52 horn + the above drivers might be OK down to 1kHz; need more tests for distortion at the lower frequencies.
But are the above CDs good enough? A quick hunt through Solen's catalog showed up a SB Audience in stock, with promising numbers & features: ROSSO-44CDN-PK
And someone pointed out a nice looking anodized aluminum FaitalPRO STH100 80x70 horn at PE that works down to 1.4 kHz. Shipping to Canada is insanely pricey right now, but someone I know is heading up in a week or 2 and will bring them up for me.
So the stage is set for comparison between CB + horn vs full OB at Mark's place. This means building the OB bass bins + w/ pairs of tops for the upper frequencies. They only need to be functional, not beautiful so it's not that much of a hardship.
We'll see which works best here.
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No. To be developed. Don't think it will be hard. @xrk971 made a WG for the NEO3, one side only. I'm thinking of something similar but for both sides, with the dimensions of the back one adjusted for the thickness of the baffle.
This project continued on, despite absence of responses to my last post: Still force-cancellation bass but OB now, and monopole for >1khz. A reversal of the original header for this thread. 😬🙄😆 Such is the nature of a journey into the unknown (to me).
The first task was to build the W-frame dual 12" bass boxes. I used 24mm thick BB ply for the driver baffles, and mostly 15mm BB for the rest. A layer of 18 or 25mm solid walnut or maple would be glued to most of the external surfaces anyway.
One of the 4 SB34SWPL76-4 was backordered, so for the time being I'd have to substitute two SB34NRX75-6 on hand for one of the bass bins. I figured I'd be able to match them closely enough with PEQ up the 150Hz max.
The WO24TX to be used as a mid up to 1~2 khz would be magnet mount to prevent its vibration from exciting the main upper baffle. This a temporary BB mock-up.
The first task was to build the W-frame dual 12" bass boxes. I used 24mm thick BB ply for the driver baffles, and mostly 15mm BB for the rest. A layer of 18 or 25mm solid walnut or maple would be glued to most of the external surfaces anyway.
One of the 4 SB34SWPL76-4 was backordered, so for the time being I'd have to substitute two SB34NRX75-6 on hand for one of the bass bins. I figured I'd be able to match them closely enough with PEQ up the 150Hz max.
The WO24TX to be used as a mid up to 1~2 khz would be magnet mount to prevent its vibration from exciting the main upper baffle. This a temporary BB mock-up.
hi mikessi, two questions for you please :
- where happens the first null of a 9" driver ? (can you really go beyond that first null to cross over at 1 K hz?)
I was quite intrigued and interested by the son's dipole with the Peereless and the sealed bass (driver?) :
- do you prefer your full opened Orion better not in Mark's huge room, but yours ?
Thougths... Why not planning a ripole instead of W frame ? Okay, ripole has less efficienty and a higher break up, but it extends - 10 Hz the low end vis a vis of the woofer Fs.
Then, maybe a ripole with the SB34RNXL , or SLS-12(or any PA with more efficienty with Fs at 40 Hz) could handle 30 Hz to 100 Hz, in order the sealed sub working below 30 Hz will work just for Home Theater or the very few music materials that have lower sound than 40 Hz ?
Also I noticed in the ripole thread from CharlieM, some indeed think than open bass is better in the low end and use it below 50Hz, and make the the 50 Hz to 200 Hz (drums main spl) sealed to have the chest feeling experience. That's also why I ask between the son's ripole and your rippole differences. So maybe your friend who had made several dipole designs has a point here... (about the behavior of open bass). My understanding is the one you left to your friend is a third OB, rigth ? (with the SB34SW) Were the bass better than the Orion 's clone or son's sealed ?
I'd like to know too about the thougth of your friend about bass!
cheers
- where happens the first null of a 9" driver ? (can you really go beyond that first null to cross over at 1 K hz?)
I was quite intrigued and interested by the son's dipole with the Peereless and the sealed bass (driver?) :
- do you prefer your full opened Orion better not in Mark's huge room, but yours ?
Thougths... Why not planning a ripole instead of W frame ? Okay, ripole has less efficienty and a higher break up, but it extends - 10 Hz the low end vis a vis of the woofer Fs.
Then, maybe a ripole with the SB34RNXL , or SLS-12(or any PA with more efficienty with Fs at 40 Hz) could handle 30 Hz to 100 Hz, in order the sealed sub working below 30 Hz will work just for Home Theater or the very few music materials that have lower sound than 40 Hz ?
Also I noticed in the ripole thread from CharlieM, some indeed think than open bass is better in the low end and use it below 50Hz, and make the the 50 Hz to 200 Hz (drums main spl) sealed to have the chest feeling experience. That's also why I ask between the son's ripole and your rippole differences. So maybe your friend who had made several dipole designs has a point here... (about the behavior of open bass). My understanding is the one you left to your friend is a third OB, rigth ? (with the SB34SW) Were the bass better than the Orion 's clone or son's sealed ?
I'd like to know too about the thougth of your friend about bass!
cheers
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First null? It's not a term I'm familiar with, but in general with DSP, all kind of things are possible. I've already tried crossing the WO24TX from as low as 800hz to as high as 1.8khx to a horn, a Yamaha ja0801 BE dome, and a Satori 29mm BE tweeter & achieved both good measured & perceived performance. Don't have access to the measured data right nowI
It was the 521 clones at Mark's place, not Orions. The speakers themselves don't change, so your question seems more about which environment I prefer. At first encounter, I had a tough time with the reverb in Mark's space, but I've become more acclimated & don't mind it as much. At high volume >90 dB avg, the reverb is tough to ignore & intrudes. This is not the case in my far more damped studio. I'm more used to and prefer my studio acoustics, but the 521 imaging in Mark's room is more dramatic.
It was never considered. Mark wanted something close to my 521 clones.
HT is not an intended function of this system... Tho Mark's POV may be changing, having watch/heard some music videos in my studio.
Given Mark's musical range, which is blues, rock, some jazz and pop, in order of preference, there's little benefit to extending much below 30Hz. Haven't determine what exact config the subs will take but they're unlikely to go much higher than 60Hz.
My son's speakers now have Dayton RSS265HF-8 in 1.2~1.3cf sealed. They have a lot of kick and extension down to around 30Hz in room. The OB of my 521s reach down as deep, but that kick in the chest sensation is stronger in David's speakers. Which is better? Hard to say.
Mark doesn't have a good canned music bass reference: none of the many vintage speakers he owns has the quality of bass of the 521. He auditioned the temporary 4-way setup of the new system in my studio 3 nights ago and really liked the sound. The 12" W-frames definitely play louder & probably deeper than the 10". He asked to hear the old Sheffield Labs Drum record on the system. The authenticity of those drum solos through the system was awesome. I don't recall ever hearing it sound better.
It was during this time that I first saw the clipping LED light up in any of my 2x150w amps: the channel driving the WO24TX. It flickered a few times. None of 300w amps driving each of the 12" drivers clipped, nor the amps driving the BE domes. I might try a higher power amp for that driver. Also offload power to the woofers by moving x-over up a bit from 120hz. The LR8 filter I'm using for the first time is very effective. No time to try yet.
The driver is rated for 90W RMS, 180W music. Member @gpapag found the clipping LED on these amps light at 78W with complex 16 tone signal into a 4 ohm load. So it is probably safe to bridge the amp for twice the output. Worth trying. The aluminum magnet mount will probably aid cooling the driver with conduction, and not being enclosed is also good for cooling.