My overall impression of your horn system is it may have good efficiency (still waiting on your verification of voltage level and system calibration to a known meter) for such small drivers, with terribly peaky response that will require drastic EQ, and the polar response will be such that EQ will only make the response worth listening to in one particular direction, while making it sound worse everywhere else.
Having worked with Leo Kottke, can safely say he would not enjoy those inconsistencies, nor the requirement of changing playing style to counteract electro-mechanical feedback generated from loudspeaker output located so close to the strings and soundboard.
The use of 1/2" for the top of the horns won't reduce electro-mechanical feedback, but will increase the already considerable weight.
There is value in testing at different voltage levels to see how much distortion the drivers generate when driven with more or less than a watt.
A more accurate simulation won't do anything to solve the basic design problems, though mounting the drivers straight rather than offset would reduce the upper nulls as can be seen in the comparison:
Probably would be a bit more accurate to model as one horn, then use "multiple cabinets" rather than combining the volumes of both together as I did above.
That said, the bends in your horn are not going to model properly in the high frequency, so hardly worth further effort, the horse is already out of the barn 😉
Art
Having worked with Leo Kottke, can safely say he would not enjoy those inconsistencies, nor the requirement of changing playing style to counteract electro-mechanical feedback generated from loudspeaker output located so close to the strings and soundboard.
The use of 1/2" for the top of the horns won't reduce electro-mechanical feedback, but will increase the already considerable weight.
There is value in testing at different voltage levels to see how much distortion the drivers generate when driven with more or less than a watt.
A more accurate simulation won't do anything to solve the basic design problems, though mounting the drivers straight rather than offset would reduce the upper nulls as can be seen in the comparison:
Probably would be a bit more accurate to model as one horn, then use "multiple cabinets" rather than combining the volumes of both together as I did above.
That said, the bends in your horn are not going to model properly in the high frequency, so hardly worth further effort, the horse is already out of the barn 😉
Art
Art - so you worked with Leo Kottke and other great musicians, awesome, I am sure they benefited from your expertise as well. Actually I sent him my patent, he did not respond. 🤣
I think selling this guitar to a great professional musician may be tough, they have so many great guitars, great equipment, and great support people.
Most people that buy guitars are non-professional musicians. My guitar has a long development cycle, due to never being done before, much to test, and much to learn. But after it is complete, it is not overly expensive to make. There very likely is a market for this type of instrument. Yes it is heavy, a drawback, but people sit and play acoustic guitars all the time. There are many heavy instruments, in fact the big ones usually have the big sound: grand piano, organ, tenor sax, drums...
The good efficiency makes me happy, some of the other problems need work. Since the FR was so good at lower dB level capped by REW, I am going to try the different dB levels, maybe it looks really good there, but tends to get worse as it gets louder. My last measurement did not have the amp maxed out, but pretty close, so I have room to improve and still get good efficiency. This guitar does not need to be played at max. volume at all. In fact when I finger pick, I turn off the magnetic pickup, as I noted before.
The sweep measures the drivers and horns, but there is still the natural sound of the acoustic guitar added to that, and it is not being measured. Seeing how this is close to the player, it will be significant, but maybe not at all for somebody who is listening from ten feet away or more.
This being a producer and reproducer in one instrument, unusual, much to learn, and much to benefit. I think this guitar needs to be played to fully understand the sound. Given that I still need to add my soundboard, things can change, but looking (sounding) good so far, moving forward. Thanks! Joe
I think selling this guitar to a great professional musician may be tough, they have so many great guitars, great equipment, and great support people.
Most people that buy guitars are non-professional musicians. My guitar has a long development cycle, due to never being done before, much to test, and much to learn. But after it is complete, it is not overly expensive to make. There very likely is a market for this type of instrument. Yes it is heavy, a drawback, but people sit and play acoustic guitars all the time. There are many heavy instruments, in fact the big ones usually have the big sound: grand piano, organ, tenor sax, drums...
The good efficiency makes me happy, some of the other problems need work. Since the FR was so good at lower dB level capped by REW, I am going to try the different dB levels, maybe it looks really good there, but tends to get worse as it gets louder. My last measurement did not have the amp maxed out, but pretty close, so I have room to improve and still get good efficiency. This guitar does not need to be played at max. volume at all. In fact when I finger pick, I turn off the magnetic pickup, as I noted before.
The sweep measures the drivers and horns, but there is still the natural sound of the acoustic guitar added to that, and it is not being measured. Seeing how this is close to the player, it will be significant, but maybe not at all for somebody who is listening from ten feet away or more.
This being a producer and reproducer in one instrument, unusual, much to learn, and much to benefit. I think this guitar needs to be played to fully understand the sound. Given that I still need to add my soundboard, things can change, but looking (sounding) good so far, moving forward. Thanks! Joe
Joe,
Your "very low signal on measured" error message was a verification that the frequency response generated can't be trusted, not that it is "really good there", or will change with level.
Frequency response does not change within the linear range of a loudspeaker.
Best of luck with finishing your guitar!
Art
Your "very low signal on measured" error message was a verification that the frequency response generated can't be trusted, not that it is "really good there", or will change with level.
Frequency response does not change within the linear range of a loudspeaker.
Best of luck with finishing your guitar!
Art
Yeah I was wondering about that Art. I will cap REW dB levels from low to high, just because I am interested in the results, but I will not report them as good measurement data. I am just a curious person. Now that I know how to do sweeps, I am interested in trying more, heck how many months did it take me to get there? 🤣
I will test at different amp master/gain volume levels (not cap the dB level in REW), and see what happens with FR measurements. Playing at different volume levels is a real world condition, so worth testing.
A comparison to an acoustic guitar alone, and an acoustic guitar with an amp is also important, that will be the competition from a marketing point of view.
Since my efficiency is good, I need to focus on a less peaky response. The good news is the REW output data for my guitar is less peaky than an acoustic guitar with or without an amp.
The mids are both strong, but my bass and my highs are both stronger by comparison. This makes my data flatter by comparison. I am hoping that is something that can be heard by people testing and comparing different guitars. I can hear it when I play, it is real.
The efficiency will be very obvious, catch people with that and then get good tone, could be a winner. I agree there may be more EQ fooling around, but with the amp built into the guitar, that will be easier to do than with a stand alone amp. Many more controls, bass/mid/treble on one channel, and bass/treble on the other. Plus of course master and volume on each channel. Yes it will be tight to fit, but class D amps get smaller all the time, so that will help. Plus the pickups have the usual controls also. Moving forward, thanks! Joe
I will test at different amp master/gain volume levels (not cap the dB level in REW), and see what happens with FR measurements. Playing at different volume levels is a real world condition, so worth testing.
A comparison to an acoustic guitar alone, and an acoustic guitar with an amp is also important, that will be the competition from a marketing point of view.
Since my efficiency is good, I need to focus on a less peaky response. The good news is the REW output data for my guitar is less peaky than an acoustic guitar with or without an amp.
The mids are both strong, but my bass and my highs are both stronger by comparison. This makes my data flatter by comparison. I am hoping that is something that can be heard by people testing and comparing different guitars. I can hear it when I play, it is real.
The efficiency will be very obvious, catch people with that and then get good tone, could be a winner. I agree there may be more EQ fooling around, but with the amp built into the guitar, that will be easier to do than with a stand alone amp. Many more controls, bass/mid/treble on one channel, and bass/treble on the other. Plus of course master and volume on each channel. Yes it will be tight to fit, but class D amps get smaller all the time, so that will help. Plus the pickups have the usual controls also. Moving forward, thanks! Joe
The "Voice Only Shure SM57 1-24-23.wav" plays, has a whirring digital background noise on it, not a clean recording.
That's weird, I downloaded it back from diyAudio and changed the extension and I could hear my voice clearly.
Just a "test 123..." I wonder if the file is not allowed and something happened.
Just a "test 123..." I wonder if the file is not allowed and something happened.
I could hear your voice clearly with some weird noise at a lower level as well.
The interface noise may also be a problem with your low level REW tests, showing up in the high frequencies.
The interface noise may also be a problem with your low level REW tests, showing up in the high frequencies.
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Oh I see, that was just a quick voice recording into my laptop with mic, in a hotel room, so I will check out the noise.
I didn't hear it at first, but yes it is there. Good to know this method will work, but I must have good quality before
I put any music out, so we shall see, thanks! Joe
I didn't hear it at first, but yes it is there. Good to know this method will work, but I must have good quality before
I put any music out, so we shall see, thanks! Joe
Some PC power supplies are noisy, you may find running on battery only would eliminate the whine.
Art - I recorded on iPhone, sounds terrible. I also tried small four track, not very happy with this little interface either. I also tried DAW software on my PC. sounds worse than what I can hear with my guitar. I think these options pretty much suck. Is it operator error, or am I correct?
I found a recording studio in Indy that looks good. I think I need a professional. I think real studio recording with a great engineer would be much better, what do you think? I am happy to pay for this, let me have it and thanks! Joe
I found a recording studio in Indy that looks good. I think I need a professional. I think real studio recording with a great engineer would be much better, what do you think? I am happy to pay for this, let me have it and thanks! Joe
Wow, sounds really great. I wish I could play like that. Thanks Freddi, keep them coming on the thread! I will keep trying. Joe
That's great thanks again Freddi, I just need a little more practice to get a good recording, really just started. I did some multi-track recording many years ago, has been a while! Joe
Every recording interface has limits and a learning curve. There have been great recordings made on each you mentioned, so I'd go with the operator as the limitation. Like playing, practice makes better.
A great engineer with a good studio room can usually get better results faster than an amateur.