Peter Daniel said:
Hi Peter,
Your findings on the super-e setup are somewhat alarming!
However before removing this setup from my Philips 963, I will try it out on the Doede Dac.
Maybe you should give super-e some more break in time? Fedde says that it takes an awful lot of time before thay start to sing...
I always try to speed up break in time with the help of 24 hours of whitenoise at maximum level. I think it does work quite well.
Regards,
Lucas
I also had a super-e pair installed in my power amp (2 x 1000BG N caps per ea rail). I had it like that for at least a week and never could get used to the sound. It wasn't clean and very boomy.
It's been well noted by some other members as well, that BG sound better if not in parallel (super pair combination or not
).
If you have your pair in a player, why not take one cap and tell us your assesment?
PS: I just put those super -e caps back and the sound is as it the tape deck's head was out of a proper azimuth alignment, if you know what I mean.
It's been well noted by some other members as well, that BG sound better if not in parallel (super pair combination or not
).If you have your pair in a player, why not take one cap and tell us your assesment?
PS: I just put those super -e caps back and the sound is as it the tape deck's head was out of a proper azimuth alignment, if you know what I mean.
crazy...
And then the wole thing cost you as much as one beautiful S1 chip
Lucas_G said:
Hi Fabian,
I am somewhat relieved to see that you have made the same experience.
Would it be a good idea to do some TDA selecting? Taking only those TDA's that have a very small left/right deviation?
With a price of only 70 Eurocents one could afford to do some selecting...
Regards,
Lucas.
And then the wole thing cost you as much as one beautiful S1 chip
Re: crazy...
Chip alone isn't everything. PS and output stage are as important, and if you want to make them properly, they will cost you much more that your S1 chip. With TDA1543, OTOH, two properly selected I/V resistors take care of you output stage and I'm still not completely sure if they actually not better than an active stage.
PS is easier to implement as well, as you have only one to deal with
Bernhard said:
And then the wole thing cost you as much as one beautiful S1 chip
Chip alone isn't everything. PS and output stage are as important, and if you want to make them properly, they will cost you much more that your S1 chip. With TDA1543, OTOH, two properly selected I/V resistors take care of you output stage and I'm still not completely sure if they actually not better than an active stage.
PS is easier to implement as well, as you have only one to deal with
A few remarks from my side
- If you use 3k it is essential to use 50k after the output cap
- I had the same observation regarding DC differences for the channels of the TDA1543!
- In my experience, two BG's anti-parallel sound more clear & smooth. I can imagine that the relative 'slowness' of a single BG is preferred soundwise. I will listen to it again...
Fedde
- If you use 3k it is essential to use 50k after the output cap
- I had the same observation regarding DC differences for the channels of the TDA1543!
- In my experience, two BG's anti-parallel sound more clear & smooth. I can imagine that the relative 'slowness' of a single BG is preferred soundwise. I will listen to it again...
Fedde
fedde said:
I'd rather say that e-cap pair is slow in comparison to a single cap. I found myself tapping when listening to a single cap, while I started developing headache when listening to parallel caps.
Although N caps are called nonpolarised, they are still directional and start of the foil is marked with short lead. When you place them in a circuit they will sound different, depending on the orientation. I found that with short lead to the output, thay sound more relaxed, but if you want the best deatail and air it's better to orient them with long lead to the output (some more brightness to be expected in this way).
If you already cut your leads, you can still identify them as in 100pcs that went through me so far the printing on the sleeve alway matches the leads and "Blac Gate" is printed on a short lead side.
fedde said:Ok, one more hint: try LM78xx regs from National...
IMHO, much preferred above Fairchild, Onsemi, ST etc.
I already tried it yesterday and again today, and it seems to me that the one I was using originally, AN8008, sounds more liquid and natural. LM7808 is dry by comparison, with more traces of brightness.
It was AN80xx regulator, when I tried it, that made me to prefer IC regulators over discreet regulator proposed by Elso, for instance.
I noticed them used by Kusunoki first, in his DAC, but for some reason he's using 78xx type of regulator on a DAC. But he's also using large cap as bypass on a DAC, and I prefer the smaller one
The AN8008 is from D-K and is made by Panasonic.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=173347
Attachments
Here's the reclocking scheme I'm using: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=173347
According to the schematic, I tried 74AC74 chip first, and later substituted 74VHC74. Well, I'm not sure if it really brings improvement. The sound gained more body, but somehow also seems to be less free, but rather restricted and tense, while loosing smoothness and relaxed presentation; less analog sound and a bit brighter. I went back to the 74AC74
PS: 74VHC74 is made by Fairchild. When experimenting with MUR860 diodes previously, I also noticed similar coloration in the parts produced by Fairchild when comparing to the same type Motorola or OnSemi counterpart.
According to the schematic, I tried 74AC74 chip first, and later substituted 74VHC74. Well, I'm not sure if it really brings improvement. The sound gained more body, but somehow also seems to be less free, but rather restricted and tense, while loosing smoothness and relaxed presentation; less analog sound and a bit brighter. I went back to the 74AC74
PS: 74VHC74 is made by Fairchild. When experimenting with MUR860 diodes previously, I also noticed similar coloration in the parts produced by Fairchild when comparing to the same type Motorola or OnSemi counterpart.
Brand Coloration???
I dunno but I believe you overdo it.
I did not hear any difference between an Onsemi MC74VHC74 and a 74VHC74 from Fairchild.
I did try a 74AC74 from TI and found it worse. I also found that reclocking all three signals was better than the two Kusunoki reclocked.
I gained more improvement on the AD1865N-K with the Asynchronous Reclocker than with the TDA1543. (Both NON-OS).
I dunno why, maybe the AD1865 is more jitter sensitive.
I do no longer use my ASR as I found I2S Direct better and much less complicated, omitting the CS8412 and the SPDIF interface.
It pays off more improving the masterclock in the transport, hence I am concentrating on that issue...........
Hi Peter,Peter Daniel said:Here's the reclocking scheme I'm using: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=173347
According to the schematic, I tried 74AC74 chip first, and later substituted 74VHC74. Well, I'm not sure if it really brings improvement. The sound gained more body, but somehow also seems to be less free, but rather restricted and tense, while loosing smoothness and relaxed presentation; less analog sound and a bit brighter. I went back to the 74AC74
PS: 74VHC74 is made by Fairchild. When experimenting with MUR860 diodes previously, I also noticed similar coloration in the parts produced by Fairchild when comparing to the same type Motorola or OnSemi counterpart.
I dunno but I believe you overdo it.
I did not hear any difference between an Onsemi MC74VHC74 and a 74VHC74 from Fairchild.
I did try a 74AC74 from TI and found it worse. I also found that reclocking all three signals was better than the two Kusunoki reclocked.
I gained more improvement on the AD1865N-K with the Asynchronous Reclocker than with the TDA1543. (Both NON-OS).
I dunno why, maybe the AD1865 is more jitter sensitive.
I do no longer use my ASR as I found I2S Direct better and much less complicated, omitting the CS8412 and the SPDIF interface.
It pays off more improving the masterclock in the transport, hence I am concentrating on that issue...........
Hi Elso,
The only difference that I mentioned between Fairchild and On Semi was in MUR860 diodes as those were the parts I compared. I don't have access to OnSemi74VHC74, so I can't say how it sounds. What I said, is that Fairchild 74VHC74 has some strange coloration, when comparing to Texas Instr. 74AC74, that was actually very similar to what I observed in MUR860 parts.
The reason this time I decided on Kusunoki reclocking scheme is that my previous DAC with asynchronous reclocking on all 3 lines was simply not as good as the DAC without reclocking. So this time I don't want to reclock Data signal and see how this compares. So far, the new DAC still doesn't sound as my other reference.
I'm also not that much impressed by running I2S directly to the DAC, as the gains I observed so far are still not that much better than feeding a separate DAC from a good transport.
While direct I2S may be better, this is still not for everybody, as some people don't want to interfere with the insides of their players and prefer to use a simple, separate DAC. Currently, I'm working on such product and I'm testing all the options and possibilities.
While I'm giving out my observations, I'm quite interested in a critical input from others.
The only difference that I mentioned between Fairchild and On Semi was in MUR860 diodes as those were the parts I compared. I don't have access to OnSemi74VHC74, so I can't say how it sounds. What I said, is that Fairchild 74VHC74 has some strange coloration, when comparing to Texas Instr. 74AC74, that was actually very similar to what I observed in MUR860 parts.
The reason this time I decided on Kusunoki reclocking scheme is that my previous DAC with asynchronous reclocking on all 3 lines was simply not as good as the DAC without reclocking. So this time I don't want to reclock Data signal and see how this compares. So far, the new DAC still doesn't sound as my other reference.
I'm also not that much impressed by running I2S directly to the DAC, as the gains I observed so far are still not that much better than feeding a separate DAC from a good transport.
While direct I2S may be better, this is still not for everybody, as some people don't want to interfere with the insides of their players and prefer to use a simple, separate DAC. Currently, I'm working on such product and I'm testing all the options and possibilities.
While I'm giving out my observations, I'm quite interested in a critical input from others.
Peter Daniel said:Didn't it occur to you that you might be actually tailoring "your" sound to those unforgiving relicts? I'm using at least 4 different systems (and 3 sets of ears) while evaluating the DAC
Hi Peter,
I don't think so considering the support for my clock.
4 different sytems and 3 pairs of ears, much too complicated for me. Even if I am tailoring the sound it does not bother me at all.
Every "manufacturer" has its own idea about "perfect" sound.
I was totally disappointed in digital sound some 14 years ago and decided to do something about it. So I started changing opamps in my CD player and so on. The rest you know. I am happy now with CD sound AND SACD of my friends Sony SCD-1. Three years ago I did not play a single CD and bought and played only LP's.
Before I share my last observation for today, let me bring this quote form 47Labs people, so you know were I'm coming from:
"it seems recent audio design concentrates more on the sound rather than the music. To me, listening to the sound and listening to the music is a very different act. Music is more like the way one note springs into the next, not just an enumeration of each note, but many of todays' high end products seem concerned more about the purity of each sound and not enough about how these notes are made into music. So they all sound very static and distant. There's a gap between the space where the listener is and where the reproduced music is. That is probably what Mr. Kimura calls an artificial quality. They tend to leave the listener as a solitary observer and lack the power of emotional involvement. "
I share a similar view on music reproduction. Now, setting things straight, let me tell you:
Asynchronous reclocking doesn't work (at least with TDA1543 chip on my board)
I just removed the clock and 74AC74 chip and disconnected both regulators for them. While the DAC has completely separate PS (including transformer), the power to reclocking circuit was taken from raw supply shared by CS8412 (but every chip has separate regulator). I don't know how much this was affecting the sound.
But removing reclocking was the biggest improvement so far. Suddenly the music took totally different dimention, exactly like in the above quote . Much less artificial sounding and much more involving, coherent and "organic". I have no doubts about this improvement.
"it seems recent audio design concentrates more on the sound rather than the music. To me, listening to the sound and listening to the music is a very different act. Music is more like the way one note springs into the next, not just an enumeration of each note, but many of todays' high end products seem concerned more about the purity of each sound and not enough about how these notes are made into music. So they all sound very static and distant. There's a gap between the space where the listener is and where the reproduced music is. That is probably what Mr. Kimura calls an artificial quality. They tend to leave the listener as a solitary observer and lack the power of emotional involvement. "
I share a similar view on music reproduction. Now, setting things straight, let me tell you:
Asynchronous reclocking doesn't work (at least with TDA1543 chip on my board
)I just removed the clock and 74AC74 chip and disconnected both regulators for them. While the DAC has completely separate PS (including transformer), the power to reclocking circuit was taken from raw supply shared by CS8412 (but every chip has separate regulator). I don't know how much this was affecting the sound.
But removing reclocking was the biggest improvement so far. Suddenly the music took totally different dimention, exactly like in the above quote
. Much less artificial sounding and much more involving, coherent and "organic". I have no doubts about this improvement.- Status
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