That's interesting and worth paying attention to. I'm a wine fan and I won't even bother opening a nice bottle if I've been cutting sleep or working exhausting hours (too often the case). My ability to detect the complexity in a wine disappears when I'm tired. It sounds like you experience the aural equivalent (no pun intended).
Dave
I've helped more than one crying child and distraught mom on a plane with this. If you've never experienced it, its not something that comes intuitively.
Dave
Yep, I'm aware of holding my nose and blowing 😀
Although my ears pop, for some reason the effect isn't the same as the method Humdinger describes using a finger to "suck" the ear drum outwards, it seems almost as if the ear drum pops outwards and then immediately pops back to where it was. It often doesn't work for me, as far as altering the sound goes, or only works in one ear.
I see the Wikipedia article suggests there is a small risk of inner ear damage due to over pressurization if you blow too hard, so I'm not too keen on this technique, except during rapid rise or decent in a plane when chewing or swallowing isn't working.
I've also noticed that in the few times I've been diving I'm unable to dive below about 5 metres as I can't adequately balance the pressure in my ears, even with this technique. Perhaps I have Eustachian tubes that are particularly stubborn about opening, especially in high pressure environments like underwater.
For whatever reason, regular moderately intense exercise seems to affect my ears in a way that make the pressure equalization of the inner ear happen more naturally - they feel like they've just been "cleared", all the time, and hearing is optimal without needing to manually clear them. I'd love to know why.
We're getting miles off topic, but exercise releases histamines in me and this actually helps me taste food better. Histamines result in inflammation so (admitted SWAG) perhaps this is what is happening?
Dave
I've done the same, but don't you find it a slow and arduous training process? I've become impatient with age 🙂
Hoping to speed up the learning process, I picked up Everest's training book and CD, and use it at my night stand, with a decent headset set-up.
Critical Listening Skills for Audio Professionals: Amazon.ca: F. Alton Everest: Books
Moulton also has a higher end course for the really motivated:
Moulton Laboratories :: Golden Ears
Dave Dal Farra
I think some of the advice about playing with ear drums should be prefaced with "kids... don't try this at home...."
Yes, trying to equalize inner ear pressure buildup with your finger is dangerous, and hard to explain adequetly. I've had luck by slowly and carefully pulling my finger out of my ear canal in a way that gently pulls on the ear drum, which can apparently pull some air pressure out from around the ear drum, while swallowing, which puts vacuum on the throat end of my estucheon(sp?) tubes, which are typically full of mucus that can move. The technique of holding your nose and trying to force pressure up the estucheon tubes would do the opposite, I would think, and would make better sense if there were a vacuum in the inner ear, which isn't consistent with what the audiologist said. That technique seems more suited for deep sea diving or ?
Here's a photo of my 2 inch cotton rope nailed tight into the corners of my listening room. Everywhere but along the floor. It made a huge difference in the ringing, with a clap the hand and listen test. I bought it at a fabric store. It's way cheaper than for example auralux foam, but is very flammable. It should be treated with a fire retardant. I'm new at this, we'll see if it works.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Well, I don't think that worked. Here's a direct link to the page this photo is on. You'll have to scroll down most of the way to the bottom of the page to see it.
http://www.spiritone.com/~rob_369/audio/Aurium%20Waveguide%202010_2.htm
or if that doesn't work, Bob's Website Then go into Audio, then Aurium Waveguide speaker project.
http://www.spiritone.com/~rob_369/audio/Aurium%20Waveguide%202010_2.htm
or if that doesn't work, Bob's Website Then go into Audio, then Aurium Waveguide speaker project.
I'll say it again . . . it's just not that simple. If you've just got to think in "rays" eminating from either instruments or loudspeakers then compare the "direct rays" and "floor bounce rays" from instrument to microphone (you know where they're usually hung), and the "rays" to your ears when you're sitting in the audience. Oops . . . which "floor" ? ? ? are you hearing the bounce from? Generally any "floor bounce" from the stage floor is going up to the hall ceiling, and the "direct bounce" line is going to have to reflect off something in the audience.
True . . . they certainly don't do that. For a variety of reasons. Most fundamentally our ears do not "hear" in gated impulse measurements. And our minds don't analyze what we hear to conform to the graphs produced, either.
What *is* "fidelity in the time domain"? Look at where the mics are placed again. Is that the "time domain" of a normal listening experience? The whole recording process doesn't preserve a natural "time domain". And there are myriad reflections . . . (musicians tend to like them, preferring both the "fuller sound" and to "hear themselves").
I've heard the theories, read the references, participated in the arguments . . . and here's (IMNSO) the best advice on the subject:
Amazon.com: Don't Believe Everything You Think: The 6 Basic Mistakes We Make in Thinking (9781591024088): Thomas E. Kida: Books
Treating all 12 corners is a very good idea but I wouldn't expect cotton rope to have a significant effect. Before/after measurements would be helpful.
Yesterday I went to Boston Symphony Hall to hear the Japanese drum troupe Kodo. Seats were on the floor, FF 34, this being far left about 2/3 back, under the first balcony, far from ideal, but you can't purchase specific seats for this type of concert. It's the third time I've heard them, second in this hall.
Image? Absolutely none, nothing whatsoever, for all but one instrument. These were mostly drums, of course, but there were several others. Closing my eyes did give a lot of information about the hall. At that spot all I can say is, it's not good for this sort of performance as far as any image is concerned. Maybe classical would come across differently, I don't know.
From my seat, one particular drum sounded as if it was at the far front of the left wall. Lot's of reflections there. Most of the rest actually had the most prominent directional cue from the delayed reflections from the far right. These were surprisingly clear echos. I had a distinct image of instrument location in the echo, both drums and the rest, clearly originating from the right side. The front was diffuse, the side echos more clear. I can't explain this and am quite puzzled by it. I suspect it's due to so much diffraction from people in front of me.
Nothing localized to the stage except for the small hand-held symbol-like instruments. The flute had no image nor even echo location. It was just "there".
Had I been in a center seat somewhere in the front half, I'm sure that my impression would have been far different. But for the half of the seats that are not near the center, you don't get much for image even at Boston Symphony Hall.
I have been in a center, mid hall seat for a performance of The Nutcracker at the concert hall in Montreal, Quebec, years ago. I recall having closed my eyes to get a mental image. It was diffuse. Of course the orchestra was not on stage. I wonder how much change the conductor must make when the musicians are in an orchestra pit. For many in the audience, even centrally located, they don't get much if any direct sound.
None of these had any floor bounce issues. I had more of an issue of HRTF of the people in front of me yesterday. 😉
I'm following this thread, but I've got to say that my experiences don't lend themselves to there being much for arguing image and things like floor bounce in almost any venue I've ever attended other than a few small venues with unamplified performances like a small jazz or folk/bluegrass concert.
Live performances are often superb despite poor acoustics, the latter all too often the case in my experience. But I really do also enjoy the "soundstage" in my stereo system at home. The two never converge, but then I don't expect that.
Dave
I've noticed about the same. I'll frequently close my eyes at a concert and think "how does this measure up in HiFi terms?" Live stereo effect is nice in spaciousness terms but not very specific in image. The only times I can close my eyes and point to the source would be the more directional instruments: trumpets and trombones. Leave it to horns to push up the d.i. and cut through the acoustical clutter (hmmm, what about a Tractrix trombone??)
The argument is frequently made that, absent a visual component, our HiFi needs to give a more clear stereo image than the live event would.
A short trip to NYC next week and have purchased tickets for my first time in Carnegie Hall! (and how do you get to Carnegie Hall?)
David S.
That is the point I've been making. The floor bounce at a live event is a fairly random thing, while the floor bounce in your living room is from a single source per channel and very specific. Even so there are similar effects in the concert hall. Beranek has reported, and others confirmed, that sound grazing across a seating area tends to have a very significant upper bass response null due to either a floor bounce or tuning effect from the height of seats. Also, clearly if a string bass stands in front of a back wall it would experience all the nulls and reinforcements that Allison would predict for a woofer in the same position. When you have 6 or 8 of them at varying positions then they will average out. Years ago Briggs showed the response variation of placing a grand piano at various spots in a room, all standard stuff in loudspeaker terms.
And how do they hear?
David S.
@Humdinger
Thank you for posting a link to the "rope trick".
Btw. i like the shape of your baffle/frame in that dipole speaker
... seems i have already seen a similar shape somewhere:
http://www.dipol-audio.de/modellankuendigungen-dateien/image003.png
Sometimes similar requirements seem to lead to similar solutions,
even when people thinking and working thousands of miles afar ...
great ! 🙂
Kind Regards
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I actually only put the rope in five corners of the room (3 sides along the ceiling, and floor to ceiling on the front wall), and although I don't have the test equipment to analyze and show waveform photos, the difference when you clap your hands or snap your fingers is huge subjectively. Meaning using your ears. I go into my bedroom and snap my fingers, and the substantial ringing is back. I never realized how much corners contribute to room ringing. They seem to act as collectors and amplifiers. An acoustics expert might be able to describe this better than me.
Yea, some of those photos are somewhat obsolete. The rope is the same, but the acoustically undesirable shelf right behind the rear firing tweeter is now damped with wool felt (very important), and the correction curve on the modified Behringer digital EQ is now set almost flat above about 300 HZ... (has a very gradual downward tilt across most of the spectrum of a few dB). From time to time I go back and check out what I wrote years earlier, and sometimes I've learned things since, and am embarrassed about what I said years earlier. It's always been a continuous leaning process. I welcome criticisms and corrections to anything I've said on my website.
Well this is just anecdotal, so take it with however much salt you want - but.
Last night I was listening to symphonic recordings, a CD of good old André Kostelanetz playing Bizet. Not a brilliant recording, by any means - but enjoyable. Very flat image, maybe 4-5 feet high.
Then the last 2 tracks on the CD. Manual de Falla. Wow! What a difference. Obviously a different recording date. Much better spread and more height. Brass at about 6' and the ambiance of the hall up to 11' or more. The difference was striking. So how can one recording sound so tall, and another (on the same CD) sound so short? How are those clues recorded?
Last night I was listening to symphonic recordings, a CD of good old André Kostelanetz playing Bizet. Not a brilliant recording, by any means - but enjoyable. Very flat image, maybe 4-5 feet high.
Then the last 2 tracks on the CD. Manual de Falla. Wow! What a difference. Obviously a different recording date. Much better spread and more height. Brass at about 6' and the ambiance of the hall up to 11' or more. The difference was striking. So how can one recording sound so tall, and another (on the same CD) sound so short? How are those clues recorded?
The more we learn, the more we realize how little we know. How the brain creates acoustic image perception to our conscious self, and unconscious self, we may never fully understand. But it's a fun path to explore. 😎
Yep we are getting way off topic now 🙂
Suffice to say in summary though that the ear as an absolute calibrated reference is not nearly as stable and dependable as many people (especially golden ears) would like to think.
There are numerous natural occurrences which can alter our perception of both tonal balance and quality, as well as more esoteric metrics like "imaging", etc on a day to day or even hour to hour basis.
I think being aware that the "baseline" of our hearing "calibration" can wander a bit is an important piece of information for the DIY audio enthusiast to know, as it can save a lot of frustrating and puzzling going around in circles making small changes that you then undo a few days later, all based on the mistaken belief that your hearing is a stable constant, and that if it sounds different on a different day something must have changed with the speaker/system.
It's also a good reason to use measurements as an "anchor" (I love LineArrays use of the word in this context) to keep you wandering too far from neutral with "listening only" adjustment, even if the final small tweaks are (as I believe they must be) done by ear.
It's also useful to prove or disprove the "has something actually changed" scenario. If it sounds different on another day but very precise measurements show no change, it's very likely that it's your baseline perception that has shifted slightly rather than some unexplainable and unmeasurable change in the speaker.
Something that those who believe fervently in (universal) speaker "break-in" could possibly consider 😉
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