Colin said:
I have a great idea, since I've already given my thoughts on its predicted performance when I spent some my precious quality time to do this design for YOU on the Fullrange Forum, how about YOU repay me by building a prototype of each and share with us your impressions and list each of their strong/weak points (if any). Who knows, if you sim them in MJK's MLTQWT worksheet and compare them to what you hear, you just might learn something.
Not to single you out per se, but this, and numerous other threads on a wide variety of forums have over time increasingly shifted from folks asking for a little guidance or insight into a particular aspect of design so they could go off and educate themselves, build a prototype, then report results as Jay/Bruce did with the original design; to folks who leave me with the strong impression that those of us who have already 'paid our dues' are expected to share it all and do everything short of building/shipping them free gratis.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone, just a trend I've noticed that's souring me on continuing to be so 'free' with my time, so yeah, you've 'killed' me from responding to any more of yours or any other's Qs who I preceive as part of this trend until ya'll have done your part of the 'give n' take' process.
`
abpea said:
?? I've already given my thoughts WRT using other shapes, so if they are followed, then by default they are 'blessed', at least by me.
Once properly damped, the vent's output consists of such long WLs that it doesn't matter what side it's on as long as it's near/at the bottom (in this particular design). Rear or down firing increases gain down at/around Fb if near the floor and/or wall, so may be of benefit in certain rooms and be too 'boomy' in others, requiring either more damping or a longer vent, so ideally you either measure the room's response at the intended locations and design a ~mirror image speaker response or design/build for max gain and use digital EQ to shape the in-room response as required.
GM
Apologies to GM - I didn't mean to be a pest about this design. I'm on a Mac, so don't have access to the MathCad resources, otherwise I'd happily spend my own time on the simulations.
Fair point too about the prototypes. I've got a JX92 line of my own on the go at the moment and will have a go at the 48" MLTL enclosure in the next couple of weeks.
Colin
Fair point too about the prototypes. I've got a JX92 line of my own on the go at the moment and will have a go at the 48" MLTL enclosure in the next couple of weeks.
Colin
Did I just make some kind of horn?
Sooo, I'm waiting on the Jx92's and decided to build the cabinets. (I have the time now, won't have the time when they arrive.) They are per the original GM specs except that right now the ports are about 6" long so I can cut them to tune. I made the cabs a little taller than abpea's original, boosting the height of the lower chamber to get to my desired listening height. I also cut the lower "bend" of that chamber to 45 deg so it's only in the bottom 1/2. So, that external chamber is 7" wide, 12" high (internal) with a 45 deg bend in the bottom, oh, 4".
I'm finishing them and as I'm sanding the finish, I get a real resonance in that area! Did I just build some kind of back-loaded horn at the port exit? 😱
mk
Sooo, I'm waiting on the Jx92's and decided to build the cabinets. (I have the time now, won't have the time when they arrive.) They are per the original GM specs except that right now the ports are about 6" long so I can cut them to tune. I made the cabs a little taller than abpea's original, boosting the height of the lower chamber to get to my desired listening height. I also cut the lower "bend" of that chamber to 45 deg so it's only in the bottom 1/2. So, that external chamber is 7" wide, 12" high (internal) with a 45 deg bend in the bottom, oh, 4".
I'm finishing them and as I'm sanding the finish, I get a real resonance in that area! Did I just build some kind of back-loaded horn at the port exit? 😱
mk
I plan on building these speakers too 
. The sound seems to be top notch and I really like the enclosure shape. 😀
A question about damping material:
In TL enclosure damping material should be added behind the driver like this:
http://www.ingocomp.net/hifi/pdf/JX92S_TL.pdf
How should this enclosure be damped. I have a resource for 1 cm thick felt. would that be the best choise for damping the back panel behind the driver (in case it is recommended with this design)
BTW: I'm a total newbie in designing speakers so go easy on me. I'd like to build the speakers the same way as you masters do and start experimenting after I have achieved a reference point.
. The sound seems to be top notch and I really like the enclosure shape. 😀 A question about damping material:
In TL enclosure damping material should be added behind the driver like this:
http://www.ingocomp.net/hifi/pdf/JX92S_TL.pdf
How should this enclosure be damped. I have a resource for 1 cm thick felt. would that be the best choise for damping the back panel behind the driver (in case it is recommended with this design)
BTW: I'm a total newbie in designing speakers so go easy on me. I'd like to build the speakers the same way as you masters do and start experimenting after I have achieved a reference point.
Damping the MLTL
DIAR,
Here's some good advice I got from GM on stuffing/damping this MLTL:
GM said:
"I usually just cover one wall, top, and back of a ML-TL with 1" acoustic rated fiberglass or 1/2" felt and rarely needed to adjust it. When the driver/vent is at ~the right point along its length and the vent is of reasonable dia/length, it's just not much of an issue.
Unfortunately, the Jordan has such a small Vas that the vent is on the large side for the pipe's Vb, so some experimentation may be required. The sim indicates ~0.5lb/ft^3 stuffing density if polyfil is used, so if the FG is used, then it would be ~0.35lbs/ft^3."
Hope this helps -
Bruce
DIAR,
Here's some good advice I got from GM on stuffing/damping this MLTL:
GM said:
"I usually just cover one wall, top, and back of a ML-TL with 1" acoustic rated fiberglass or 1/2" felt and rarely needed to adjust it. When the driver/vent is at ~the right point along its length and the vent is of reasonable dia/length, it's just not much of an issue.
Unfortunately, the Jordan has such a small Vas that the vent is on the large side for the pipe's Vb, so some experimentation may be required. The sim indicates ~0.5lb/ft^3 stuffing density if polyfil is used, so if the FG is used, then it would be ~0.35lbs/ft^3."
Hope this helps -
Bruce
Yes, this was the answer I was hoping for.
I just assembled BrianGT's Gainclone and I thought I could build these speakers as they should me a perfect match for each other. I allready have a very good setup but it is lacking emotion and 3D soundstage... 🙁 🙂
I just assembled BrianGT's Gainclone and I thought I could build these speakers as they should me a perfect match for each other. I allready have a very good setup but it is lacking emotion and 3D soundstage... 🙁 🙂
To Diar & Cheesehead,
You'll love these speakers. I was utterly blown away by the sound. It took a little tweeking, i.e placing stuffing in the bottom vents and then removing small sections of stuffing until I heard the male voice honking which was prevelant, after which I added some back, just enough to remove the honking sound. Also, it's a good idea to add the passive network as indicated in Jordan's design. It added a little umph to the bottom end. I put the crossover on the outside in a small pine box and velcroed it t the back of the main speakers. It matched the front pine face. (Sort of art deco design). As for damping at the back of the driver, I used green floor dampingwhich is excellent material for deadening sound. You can find it possibly in any large flooring company. It's usually in large rolls. It's used for deadening sound under hardwood floors. As for sound of the speaker itself, I haven't found anything better. Bass is tight, very clear mid range especially for voice, and surprisingly very good highs. You will not need a super tweeter. Best to build them with either MDF or baltic birch ply and you'll be amazed what a single driver can do. I can understand why some commercial builders sell these particular speakers for up to $4000.00 (US) a pair. Good luck with building your speakers and hope to hear how they turn out.
You'll love these speakers. I was utterly blown away by the sound. It took a little tweeking, i.e placing stuffing in the bottom vents and then removing small sections of stuffing until I heard the male voice honking which was prevelant, after which I added some back, just enough to remove the honking sound. Also, it's a good idea to add the passive network as indicated in Jordan's design. It added a little umph to the bottom end. I put the crossover on the outside in a small pine box and velcroed it t the back of the main speakers. It matched the front pine face. (Sort of art deco design). As for damping at the back of the driver, I used green floor dampingwhich is excellent material for deadening sound. You can find it possibly in any large flooring company. It's usually in large rolls. It's used for deadening sound under hardwood floors. As for sound of the speaker itself, I haven't found anything better. Bass is tight, very clear mid range especially for voice, and surprisingly very good highs. You will not need a super tweeter. Best to build them with either MDF or baltic birch ply and you'll be amazed what a single driver can do. I can understand why some commercial builders sell these particular speakers for up to $4000.00 (US) a pair. Good luck with building your speakers and hope to hear how they turn out.
JVA, did you build the design as drawn on the Jordan Webside?
The TL, similar to the Konus Essence?
Marc
The TL, similar to the Konus Essence?
Marc
Is there any other way inside the box except the driver hole or have you build the speaker so that it can be opened?
Edit: I'm not quite sure which passive network you ment.
Edit2: Thanks Zeno 🙂 inductor (about 2 mH or a bit more) and a resistor (4 ohms) in series with the driver.
Edit: I'm not quite sure which passive network you ment.
Edit2: Thanks Zeno 🙂 inductor (about 2 mH or a bit more) and a resistor (4 ohms) in series with the driver.
The baffle step compensation circuit.
You can find the values on this page http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/systems.html
Marc
You can find the values on this page http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/systems.html
Marc
Diar
There is really no way,except through the speaker hole.You can work from there to adjust or add damping.
Zeno
Yes its built according to Jordans web site
Yes,its[similar] to Konus Essence.Konus may have altered some parts of the design,I don;t know.
NOTE
round off all corners inside the box and round off,or flare the bottom vents for cleaner air flow.
Good luck.
joe
There is really no way,except through the speaker hole.You can work from there to adjust or add damping.
Zeno
Yes its built according to Jordans web site
Yes,its[similar] to Konus Essence.Konus may have altered some parts of the design,I don;t know.
NOTE
round off all corners inside the box and round off,or flare the bottom vents for cleaner air flow.
Good luck.
joe
Just to make it clear for newbies: Inductor and resistor are connected parallel. This passive network is connected in series with the driver.
navin said:
?! Same place it's been on every other thread I've seen you and him post on, his website: http://www.quarter-wave.com/
GM
thanks. dont remember posting there. in fact after my laptop crashed i did not even have that link.
My first impressions!
whoa😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Just finished the speakers on Monday. Brought them in & set them up... after a couple of hours breaking in, they are amazing. My brother-in-law and I sat down and went through about 20 different CD's ("let's see how this sounds!").
I've got a bit of a tin ear & am a speaker noob, but I can tell you that the clarity of these things is amazing. We heard things in songs that we'd never heard before. And the percussion - No, you don't feel it (hey, it's a 4" speaker after all!) but it made me jump. I can now tell the difference between the different drums! And vocals - sweet, especially female.
I re-burned the bro-in-law's Dave Matthews CD to compensate for BSC (3dB) and he sat in front of the speakers with a grin and started pointing - "There's Dave" - "There's the drum set" - "There's the rhythm guitar".
After we'd listened for about 3 hours, the spouse came home.
First reaction - What do we need more speakers for? Don't we have enough already?
After 5 minutes of listening to the Dixie Chicks - Hey, these are pretty good. 😀 😀
After 15 minutes of listening, pointing to my first diy speakers, vifa TC18 TL's - We don't need these anymore, let's give them to my brother
😀
And I don't even have the BSC in yet!
Damping at the back of the driver? What is this, and how is it applied? I'm assuming that you're talking about something different than the stuffing...
For the $$ and effort, these speakers are awesome. Thanks to all for designing, posting, and sharing, especially abpea and GM, also Bob Brines & MJK for their TL work and explanations.
And abpea - the trapezoidal sound BETTER?
mk
whoa😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Just finished the speakers on Monday. Brought them in & set them up... after a couple of hours breaking in, they are amazing. My brother-in-law and I sat down and went through about 20 different CD's ("let's see how this sounds!").
I've got a bit of a tin ear & am a speaker noob, but I can tell you that the clarity of these things is amazing. We heard things in songs that we'd never heard before. And the percussion - No, you don't feel it (hey, it's a 4" speaker after all!) but it made me jump. I can now tell the difference between the different drums! And vocals - sweet, especially female.
I re-burned the bro-in-law's Dave Matthews CD to compensate for BSC (3dB) and he sat in front of the speakers with a grin and started pointing - "There's Dave" - "There's the drum set" - "There's the rhythm guitar".
After we'd listened for about 3 hours, the spouse came home.
First reaction - What do we need more speakers for? Don't we have enough already?
After 5 minutes of listening to the Dixie Chicks - Hey, these are pretty good. 😀 😀
After 15 minutes of listening, pointing to my first diy speakers, vifa TC18 TL's - We don't need these anymore, let's give them to my brother
😀 And I don't even have the BSC in yet!
JVA said:
Damping at the back of the driver? What is this, and how is it applied? I'm assuming that you're talking about something different than the stuffing...
For the $$ and effort, these speakers are awesome. Thanks to all for designing, posting, and sharing, especially abpea and GM, also Bob Brines & MJK for their TL work and explanations.
And abpea - the trapezoidal sound BETTER?
mk
Re: My first impressions!
Originally posted by cheesehead:
whoa😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Just finished the speakers on Monday. Brought them in & set them up... after a couple of hours breaking in, they are amazing. My brother-in-law and I sat down and went through about 20 different CD's ("let's see how this sounds!").
I've got a bit of a tin ear & am a speaker noob, but I can tell you that the clarity of these things is amazing. We heard things in songs that we'd never heard before. And the percussion - No, you don't feel it (hey, it's a 4" speaker after all!) but it made me jump. I can now tell the difference between the different drums! And vocals - sweet, especially female.
I re-burned the bro-in-law's Dave Matthews CD to compensate for BSC (3dB) and he sat in front of the speakers with a grin and started pointing - "There's Dave" - "There's the drum set" - "There's the rhythm guitar".
After we'd listened for about 3 hours, the spouse came home.
First reaction - What do we need more speakers for? Don't we have enough already?
After 5 minutes of listening to the Dixie Chicks - Hey, these are pretty good. 😀 😀
After 15 minutes of listening, pointing to my first diy speakers, vifa TC18 TL's - We don't need these anymore, let's give them to my brother 😀
And I don't even have the BSC in yet!
Damping at the back of the driver? What is this, and how is it applied? I'm assuming that you're talking about something different than the stuffing...
For the $$ and effort, these speakers are awesome. Thanks to all for designing, posting, and sharing, especially abpea and GM, also Bob Brines & MJK for their TL work and explanations.
And abpea - the trapezoidal sound BETTER?
mk
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hey, hey, hey... 🙂 They are excellent aren't they!!
What BSC are you using? I'm not using any BSC on any of my boxes. Let me know if it makes a difference.
The bass/precussion in the original design is better than you would ever think it would be considering the size of the driver, but you're right it isn't quite chest thumping... close and very good sounding.
However... you - will - get bass and precussion you can feel from the front-firing trapezoidial design. We (a whole bunch of people) just finished two days of critical listening tests between the original design and the trap design and the trapezoidial design was a hands down improvement across the board.
But hold on!! GM's back at work and has developed another variation on his original ML-TL he thinks will be the best yet !!!!!
I'm going to try to put a pair together this weekend and give a listen. Stay tuned!!!
Cheesehead I'm glad you built a pair. If you didn't build anything else these speakers will continue to delight you for a long, long time to come. And the good news is they will continue to sound better and better the longer you listen to them.
Talk with you later -
Bruce
Originally posted by cheesehead:
whoa😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Just finished the speakers on Monday. Brought them in & set them up... after a couple of hours breaking in, they are amazing. My brother-in-law and I sat down and went through about 20 different CD's ("let's see how this sounds!").
I've got a bit of a tin ear & am a speaker noob, but I can tell you that the clarity of these things is amazing. We heard things in songs that we'd never heard before. And the percussion - No, you don't feel it (hey, it's a 4" speaker after all!) but it made me jump. I can now tell the difference between the different drums! And vocals - sweet, especially female.
I re-burned the bro-in-law's Dave Matthews CD to compensate for BSC (3dB) and he sat in front of the speakers with a grin and started pointing - "There's Dave" - "There's the drum set" - "There's the rhythm guitar".
After we'd listened for about 3 hours, the spouse came home.
First reaction - What do we need more speakers for? Don't we have enough already?
After 5 minutes of listening to the Dixie Chicks - Hey, these are pretty good. 😀 😀
After 15 minutes of listening, pointing to my first diy speakers, vifa TC18 TL's - We don't need these anymore, let's give them to my brother
😀 And I don't even have the BSC in yet!
Damping at the back of the driver? What is this, and how is it applied? I'm assuming that you're talking about something different than the stuffing...
For the $$ and effort, these speakers are awesome. Thanks to all for designing, posting, and sharing, especially abpea and GM, also Bob Brines & MJK for their TL work and explanations.
And abpea - the trapezoidal sound BETTER?
mk
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hey, hey, hey... 🙂 They are excellent aren't they!!
What BSC are you using? I'm not using any BSC on any of my boxes. Let me know if it makes a difference.
The bass/precussion in the original design is better than you would ever think it would be considering the size of the driver, but you're right it isn't quite chest thumping... close and very good sounding.
However... you - will - get bass and precussion you can feel from the front-firing trapezoidial design. We (a whole bunch of people) just finished two days of critical listening tests between the original design and the trap design and the trapezoidial design was a hands down improvement across the board.
But hold on!! GM's back at work and has developed another variation on his original ML-TL he thinks will be the best yet !!!!!
I'm going to try to put a pair together this weekend and give a listen. Stay tuned!!!
Cheesehead I'm glad you built a pair. If you didn't build anything else these speakers will continue to delight you for a long, long time to come. And the good news is they will continue to sound better and better the longer you listen to them.
Talk with you later -
Bruce
Re: Re: My first impressions!
All I did was to extract the wav files from a couple of CD's then reburn with +3dB eq from abt 300 Hz on down. My bro-in-law the Dave Matthews fan says it improves things immensely, and I'd agree.
I'm going to order the inductors & resistors for a BSC circuit & give it a try sometime soon now (well, in the next month or so, when I get another paycheck).
mk
abpea said:
All I did was to extract the wav files from a couple of CD's then reburn with +3dB eq from abt 300 Hz on down. My bro-in-law the Dave Matthews fan says it improves things immensely, and I'd agree.
I'm going to order the inductors & resistors for a BSC circuit & give it a try sometime soon now (well, in the next month or so, when I get another paycheck).
mk
Re: Re: My first impressions!
can you tell us more about that?
abpea said:
But hold on!! GM's back at work and has developed another variation on his original ML-TL he thinks will be the best yet !!!!!
I'm going to try to put a pair together this weekend and give a listen. Stay tuned!!!
can you tell us more about that?
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