Alnico can be demagnetised more easily, afaik, so the thickness adds stability. But I think you're onto something because even with neo's they still use iron at opposite ends of the poles. I think it may be that the iron creates a 'flexible' region that bends and recovers gracefully in response to flux from the voice coil.
I used to believe Alnico was better I no longer feel this way having owned the same exact speakers using Alnico and ferrite magnets. My personal belief of why people like Alnico better is because of all the amazing gear that used Alnico for example two of the most famous speaker manufactures in the world Altec Lansing and JBL and two of the most famous guitar manufactures in the world Fender and Gibson the stratocaster and the Les paul . Alnico magnets were used at a time when our music was amazing and the build quality of guitars, speakers, audio equipment was at it's peak. Alnico is part of an era that people love and miss and I think that has a large part to play in the appeal of Alnico. Me personally I wish I had a time machine I would go back to that era in a heart beat.
Ignoring the US politics aspects (I'm from the UK so no involvement) -as far as I can see, they are actually quite correct in what they say.
- The price is what it is: they describe what the product is and people can make their own decisions -personal freedom of choice & all that jazz. Personally I wouldn't: I don't think it's worth it either, but I could say the same about many expensive wideband drivers from a performance POV. And in fairness, while I might not like it (or some of the purple-prose Decware regularly use) mysef, they provide as much or more in the way of up-front data on this particular item than a few high-priced brands seem to manage.
- Since they are (were) produced in small numbers on a semi-custom basis rather than a conventional production run, it's not unusual for a company to accept no returns except on a warranty basis, or for them to require a significant up-front deposit. Many semi-custom products are offered on similar terms, from cars to furniture.
- Being a modified item, with considerable hand-work done by Steve himself (designing / selecting the transformer for desired characteristics, mounting it, adding custom machined and finished can, terminals, external wiring, testing & matching etc.), AFAIK it's correct to say they are hand-built in the US. It doesn't matter that the base driver is made in China because buyers aren't purchasing that: they're purchasing a modified & redesigned product. As I understand it, the object of most consumer legislation in this regard is to stop the false re-labelling of items -IIRC Tara Labs for e.g. fell foul of that one by having complete product manufacturing outsourced, then adding a label to the effect that it was made in the US, which is clearly unacceptable. That doesn't apply to the FRX given the work done, and the fact that they are up-front about what it's based on. Looking around Decware's site, they seem to stress where relevant the origins of unmodified product, so as far as I can see, they are acting in good faith as far as stating product origins goes. If you have concerns though, you could possibly raise them with the FTC (which I believe is roughly equivalent to the UK's Trading Standards) so they can assess the situation.
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Altec lansing 416-8b and Altec lansing 416-8c same exact speaker different magnets both have the same flux density 11400 gauss.
Many thanks Scott me too feels kind of suspicous. Myself, I feel that paper cone material composition, shape & design weighs more importance
to good Sq. Well at least for the not so crazy high price versions. Lol
Thanks again
I guess that if you had a good quality FC driver, you could take on an odd project of
variable DC drive to create a unique audio compressor to be mic'd in a 'vintage sound' studio.
variable DC drive to create a unique audio compressor to be mic'd in a 'vintage sound' studio.
For me it just comes down to one thing do you have integrity. I believe in being honest I don't believe in taking advantage of people that are less informed and I look down on people that do just that sorry but it is what it is. This world needs more good honest people or it's not going to survive. If I had to lay my head down every night knowing I was part of the problem I could never sleep.
Thank you Hearinspace. Am confuse about wiring 2 FC in series. Would appreciate if you could elaborate more
It's just a diagram kluged from an online image . I hope it makes it clear enough. Check again to be sure once you're ready to start hooking them up ! : )
As [hopefully! 😉 ] do we all; thing is though there isn't anything that's actually dishonest as far as I can see about the FRX. They're up front about the base unit, the price, 5-year warranty, & state (if in slightly purple-prose) what it is etc., and looking over the page, the only statements I can find that are technically on the edge are
and
'Eliminates ringing' is questionable, since that would imply a perfect impulse response with an infinitely fast settling time. 'Improvements to the overall phase angle' is borderline, since they aren't specific, although as-is, I'd call that questionable too. That's about it, since subjective comments are just that -subjective, and like anyone else they're free to say what they like. Nobody appears to be lying about anything. There's a debate that companies should assume lowest technical common denominator, but that isn't really very practical, and it's not strictly for them to educate people either -they're businesses.
Hi Sumotan,
A good driver consists of many elements which need to be done right and are more or less equally important, a good driver is the sum of all things and is not necessarily good due to a FC motor, an AlNiCo PM motor or a Neodym motor.
A good motor design is a choice of compromises, geometrical issues, choice of dimensions and materials. It is not necessarily good due to the choice of a FC in general, there are many other issues which will determine the performance. Once your core and plate near the gap is saturated, it does not make much of a difference how you saturate it.
If you have a motor with a bad gap/core/plate conception (which for example may result in an unsymmetric BL curve), you will not save the design with the choice of a FC as source for the magnetic power, neither will you save it with any other choice.
If you have a driver suffering from bad cone/suspension/coil design or whatever, you will not save this design with a FC motor.
In driver design, there are a lot of things that are important. If everything else is good (that means a sensibly chosen set of compromises), a FC motor is a nice thing to have, especially if you diy it. Why? Because it´s relatively easy. Get your steel parts, wind the coil, and you´re done. No dangers from strong magnets tending to misalign during construction process, no need for a magnetizer, no damaged parts. Metallic debris in the gap? No problem with a FC, switch the PSU off and clean it...
The possibility to vary Qe by PSU voltage could be welcome for bass and bass-mid drivers, less so for mid/treble drivers where you want motor strength, and where reduction of available power don´t make much sense.
If you really manage to make drivers, one with a PM, one with a FC, where everything else is equal, including dimensions and TSP, you will find out (by measuring performance and by ear) that differences are very very small. The choice of a suspension for example has a far bigger influence.
Be aware of the fact that neither Supravox nor EMS driver variations (PM and FC, Supravox also offers some AlNiCo) are "the same apart from the motor", the offered TSP vary, the dimensions vary. TSP may vary even more if you measure them yourself, side by side.
But, if you really want a FC motor (and you want it for the fact of it, because you think it´s sexy, not because it´s technically better), Istvans offers (Sonido) or Kathys offers (EMS) are sensibly priced. Or you get a solid cheap driver (like the Seas 8" FR) and convert it with your own FC motor. It´s not expensive.
Regarding PSU´s for FC´s, you can start with very cheap PMPS first (I used Meanwell medical grade PSUs for some time, and found them surprisingly good) and then, if everything else is right and the speakers are completely to your taste, you might want to try a linear PSU. Or batteries (I powered my FC´s with large LiIon batteries). Or a supercap supply... there are many things to explore, but all else must be nice before that. As above, if your speaker containing your FC drivers has any issues, no PSU change will solve them.
All the best
Mattes
A good driver consists of many elements which need to be done right and are more or less equally important, a good driver is the sum of all things and is not necessarily good due to a FC motor, an AlNiCo PM motor or a Neodym motor.
A good motor design is a choice of compromises, geometrical issues, choice of dimensions and materials. It is not necessarily good due to the choice of a FC in general, there are many other issues which will determine the performance. Once your core and plate near the gap is saturated, it does not make much of a difference how you saturate it.
If you have a motor with a bad gap/core/plate conception (which for example may result in an unsymmetric BL curve), you will not save the design with the choice of a FC as source for the magnetic power, neither will you save it with any other choice.
If you have a driver suffering from bad cone/suspension/coil design or whatever, you will not save this design with a FC motor.
In driver design, there are a lot of things that are important. If everything else is good (that means a sensibly chosen set of compromises), a FC motor is a nice thing to have, especially if you diy it. Why? Because it´s relatively easy. Get your steel parts, wind the coil, and you´re done. No dangers from strong magnets tending to misalign during construction process, no need for a magnetizer, no damaged parts. Metallic debris in the gap? No problem with a FC, switch the PSU off and clean it...
The possibility to vary Qe by PSU voltage could be welcome for bass and bass-mid drivers, less so for mid/treble drivers where you want motor strength, and where reduction of available power don´t make much sense.
If you really manage to make drivers, one with a PM, one with a FC, where everything else is equal, including dimensions and TSP, you will find out (by measuring performance and by ear) that differences are very very small. The choice of a suspension for example has a far bigger influence.
Be aware of the fact that neither Supravox nor EMS driver variations (PM and FC, Supravox also offers some AlNiCo) are "the same apart from the motor", the offered TSP vary, the dimensions vary. TSP may vary even more if you measure them yourself, side by side.
But, if you really want a FC motor (and you want it for the fact of it, because you think it´s sexy, not because it´s technically better), Istvans offers (Sonido) or Kathys offers (EMS) are sensibly priced. Or you get a solid cheap driver (like the Seas 8" FR) and convert it with your own FC motor. It´s not expensive.
Regarding PSU´s for FC´s, you can start with very cheap PMPS first (I used Meanwell medical grade PSUs for some time, and found them surprisingly good) and then, if everything else is right and the speakers are completely to your taste, you might want to try a linear PSU. Or batteries (I powered my FC´s with large LiIon batteries). Or a supercap supply... there are many things to explore, but all else must be nice before that. As above, if your speaker containing your FC drivers has any issues, no PSU change will solve them.
All the best
Mattes
Hi Mattes,
Thank you kindly for a very educational reply. Im playing with OB witha heavily tweaked Coral Flat 8. Am surprised that I hear changes on every tweaked that I've tried. As to your commented on voltage adjustment that only affects bass or mid bass, my findings are different cause when I increase magnetic strenght via additional neodymium magnets, I hear improve clarity, snap etc. In any case I presume you got first hand experience with Sonido or Ems. May I know how do they sound like both PM & FC. For me I'm always curious, with so much improvement that I got out of tweaking the Corals, Im just wondering if there's even better FR speakers.
Many thanks again Matt
Thank you kindly for a very educational reply. Im playing with OB witha heavily tweaked Coral Flat 8. Am surprised that I hear changes on every tweaked that I've tried. As to your commented on voltage adjustment that only affects bass or mid bass, my findings are different cause when I increase magnetic strenght via additional neodymium magnets, I hear improve clarity, snap etc. In any case I presume you got first hand experience with Sonido or Ems. May I know how do they sound like both PM & FC. For me I'm always curious, with so much improvement that I got out of tweaking the Corals, Im just wondering if there's even better FR speakers.
Many thanks again Matt
Hi Sumotan,
You´re welcome.
Of course you hear changes when you change the magnetic properties, I´m sorry if I was not clearly referring to a mid/treble/widerange driver where you want a strong motor with saturated plate and core, to have best possible electric control over the coil´s movements. This is best achieved with a FC or Neodym motor, and once your metal parts are saturated, no adding of anything will make the motor stronger.
So, if you have a driver design with a strong FC motor and saturated metal parts, you achieve this with a certain PSU voltage. Regulation of the PSU voltage is of course then possible, but only downwards and will weaken the motor, in which I see no sense. So you may as well use a Neodym motor of equal strength, and I doubt that there will be differences. I have not tried that yet, but will do it some day.
Yes, with a stronger motor, you may hear more clarity and snap. And less bass, but of course if you have the Flat 8 on OB, you´ll for sure have something else for bass.
I have experience with a lot of drivers including EMS and Sonido, but have not heard them one by one FC vs. PM. As before, with different motors this are different drivers, and they will sound different. FC motors have a tendency to be stronger than PM motors, and if so, the "same" driver with a stronger FC motor will sound different than the "same" driver with a weaker PM motor. I doubt that the "same" driver with an equally strong Neodym motor will sound different; the differences are due to increased motor strength and not due to the type of motor.
If you´re tweaking the magnetic circuit of your Corals with additional magnets, it might be interesting to get and to learn FEMM, in order to see what you are doing. I found FEMM simulations to be very precise and have confirmed them by real life measurements.
More than 30 years have passed by since I listened to a Flat 8 the last time... but then, I preferred (and had for a long time) the Beta 8. Today, yes, in my opinion there are even "better" drivers. But what is "better"? For which taste, music, room, amp, application? Oh, I forgot, money of course as well...
All the best
Mattes
Hi Mattes,
Thanks again for the tutorial & advice. Playing with FR was actually out of curiosity & when I heard part of it's goodness I was hooked.
Tweaking ideas came from threads that I read here in Diyaudio. Thks to Nandappe for his magnet suggestion I got curious & tested it out.
Fundimentally it's like an FC increasing the flux density but when you go too much, sq degrades. I also bought a pair of SB FR just to hear what
all the rave is all about. Well the treble is so much better but that's it, for my ears not so wholesome cause there's no tone to the sound & I believe
its due to too thick a speaker cone. Anyway my aim is to build a 3 way speaker with the FR running at aound 300-7k hz or so. Decided to forgo the
the FC route as I think it's too much of a hassle for me. Now thinking of buying either Supravox 215 RTF without whizzer or EMS BL7 cause sensistivity
of BL8 is low but somehow I feel that 8 inch is the sweet spot for more natural sound reproduction.
Many thanks again Mattes
Thanks again for the tutorial & advice. Playing with FR was actually out of curiosity & when I heard part of it's goodness I was hooked.
Tweaking ideas came from threads that I read here in Diyaudio. Thks to Nandappe for his magnet suggestion I got curious & tested it out.
Fundimentally it's like an FC increasing the flux density but when you go too much, sq degrades. I also bought a pair of SB FR just to hear what
all the rave is all about. Well the treble is so much better but that's it, for my ears not so wholesome cause there's no tone to the sound & I believe
its due to too thick a speaker cone. Anyway my aim is to build a 3 way speaker with the FR running at aound 300-7k hz or so. Decided to forgo the
the FC route as I think it's too much of a hassle for me. Now thinking of buying either Supravox 215 RTF without whizzer or EMS BL7 cause sensistivity
of BL8 is low but somehow I feel that 8 inch is the sweet spot for more natural sound reproduction.
Many thanks again Mattes
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Hi Sumo,
Don´t judge sensitivity by numbers only... without information about measurement conditions, frequency range and so on most numbers given by manufacturers are meaningless. Some claim sensitivity numbers above 100dB - but if you look closely and measure yourself, you may find out that this number is true only for the loudest resonance somewhere in the upper-mid/treble range and can´t be maintained over a useful wide frequency band without large deviations. In real life, sensitivity of EMS LB8 is not low.
I also like 8" above 300Hz (for me in OB with an 18" below). Depending on implementation, volume needs and so on, 7" might struggle in large dynamics.
I had EMS LB8 and liked it a lot, but moved on since then. If you just want a widerange from 300Hz-7000Hz, I would cut the whizzer off. Or choose the LB7 without whizzer and compromise on the lowr end? Your choice, as always...
An interesting and not expensive alternative (no FC though...) might be the Satori MR16 widerange, well discussed here and elsewhere (disclaimer: I´m biased as I have a new pair for sale relatively cheap here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...cs-satori-mr16-pnw-4-nib.397806/#post-7336501)
Another interesting, but expensive alternative (no FC though...) might be the Fertin Acoustics 21WLA, which in my books is near perfect as a widerange (disclaimer: I´m biased as I´m distributing these drivers here
https://guentherengineering.com/21wla). These are available with a FC motor as well, but even more expensive and made to order.
But of course there are plenty of drivers around... what are your plans for bass and treble? Crossover? Room? Amp? Music? Budget?
All the best
Mattes