This whole thread reads like a "why go active?" Q&A session. At least mid/tweets + bass. Amplifiers are cheap. Heck, one can probably buy an additional inaudible/blameless for the highs for the cost of 2 of the aforementioned high mH air cores.
It depends on your game. In a class-D setup, channels can be added for less money than a round at the pub would set you back. But please also add the cost of wiring, connectors, and generally the loss of elegance/simplicity of being able to connect one amp to one speaker using one cable. And generally, the line-level crossover is cheap, but free.
I think a stronger argument for going multi way active is the ability to use boxes such as the miniDSP. Their flexibility and the ability to quickly modify your filter countless times at zero added cost are wonderful delights. Both line level filters and speaker level filters can not match these qualities. But the digital tinkertoys are not cheap.
This all goes out of the window if you are into boat anchor style amps. My tube amp project is going very slowly, but when it is done, it will require speakers with an "old fashioned" crossover. You can make up many arguments against going with tubes, but I tend to simply like them. Some people like to forge iron in their backyards, some people like to print in 3D in their basements and some like to knit. From an economical standpoint, these hobbies are probably equally silly...
I think a stronger argument for going multi way active is the ability to use boxes such as the miniDSP. Their flexibility and the ability to quickly modify your filter countless times at zero added cost are wonderful delights. Both line level filters and speaker level filters can not match these qualities. But the digital tinkertoys are not cheap.
This all goes out of the window if you are into boat anchor style amps. My tube amp project is going very slowly, but when it is done, it will require speakers with an "old fashioned" crossover. You can make up many arguments against going with tubes, but I tend to simply like them. Some people like to forge iron in their backyards, some people like to print in 3D in their basements and some like to knit. From an economical standpoint, these hobbies are probably equally silly...
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correct
Yes if iron shield as to close to the inductor .
If you need a good shield for an air core you need a big enclosure and on its middle you can put your inductor possibly short and fat the filed made a small B flux nearest the shield and the interactions are small .
Perhaps always the world around the inductor change his value a job 🙂
Yes if iron shield as to close to the inductor .
If you need a good shield for an air core you need a big enclosure and on its middle you can put your inductor possibly short and fat the filed made a small B flux nearest the shield and the interactions are small .
Perhaps always the world around the inductor change his value a job 🙂
+1, but if you are able to integrate such an enclosure in your speaker, you can also (probably easier) arrange things keep the inductors well away from anything else, and just skip the enclosure altogether.
Timpert--totally understandable! Sounds like an awesome project (which is 95% of the fun, no?).
But yes, I was going with cheap/performance-wise. DSP is extremely flexible to new designs/configurations and active means you can just about go to a AV receiver and have enough power. Not as sexy, for sure.
But yes, I was going with cheap/performance-wise. DSP is extremely flexible to new designs/configurations and active means you can just about go to a AV receiver and have enough power. Not as sexy, for sure.
The capacitor impedance dominates the shunt current draw, shaping the speaker drive voltage wih the help of the source impedance (the inductor).
Here the voice coil dominates the capacitor's series parasitics in determining the drive voltage.
One idea
An idea for a small two way is made the big iron enclosure inside the stand like a
big tube . But i don't have made any calculus for this geometry 🙂
An idea for a small two way is made the big iron enclosure inside the stand like a
big tube . But i don't have made any calculus for this geometry 🙂
uh no
you need to understand by definition 2 things
1) any current that routes through the shunt capacitor wont get heard.
2) the current through the shunt capacitor I=C*dV/dt
If the shunt current had no impact on what is being heard, we could discard all shunt components...
its by definition its not an opinion.
Im sorry you cant argue with 2 fundamental definitions in AC circuits!
(BTW this requires 1st semester Calculus)
Im sorry you cant argue with 2 fundamental definitions in AC circuits!
(BTW this requires 1st semester Calculus)
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In a passive crossover non-linearities in the V/I curve of shunt components do make a difference in the voltage that appears across the voice coil of the loudspeaker being driven in that crossover network.
(P.S. I've had calculus, differential equations, vector calculus, discrete and combinatorial mathematics, all part of an electrical engineering degree. 😉 )
Scott
^ Seems like the shunt/series capacitor talk is going past each other. Nonlinearities in a shunt capacitor will certainly affect the current division between the shunt capacitor and the driver. That said, any current in the shunt capacitor leg is not getting heard (under all reasonable cases, at least). I'm not keen on violating conservation of energy/mass on that one. 😉
indeed, perhaps some are thinking too hard. there is only one series inductor with a shunt cap across the speaker load.
1) any current that routes through the shunt capacitor wont get heard. (defined by Norton's theorem)
2) the current through the shunt capacitor I = C*dV/dt (definition of instantaneous current through a capacitor)
if I said 1+1 = 2, I would get an argument round here LOL
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What rubbish. Sorry. The driver gets the difference in current between the series and the shunt components.
So any non-linearities in either series or shunt are heard. 😎
And as I have said before to some peoples surprise, component tolerances manifest themselves most at crossover. Away from crossover, components are either all-pass or band-stop. There's no stressing power factor involved.
I won't argue with I = C*dV/dt, though I don't think in those terms. I suppose that is the algebra of capacitors. 🙂
I am not one for insulting anybody's intelligence here. But just do a thought experiment. Suppose you have a series coil connected to a bass, with a shunt capacitor connected to ground. Standard stuff.
Now I did this a while back and it distorted horribly and grossly and painfully to the ears. 😱
The problem was that I hadn't soldered the shunt capacitor properly to ground in my enthusiasm to get the circuit up and running. It was just loosely touching the earth tag. See the shunt connection mattered! 🙂
understanding electronics is a building process ...start with simple models with defined rules of analysis and then you can add the layers later. If we cant agree on the well established rules E.g definitions I don't know what to tell you. "walk before you try to run"
I always think of dV/dt with caps and di/dt with inductors, why? because that's what they do. caps resist changing voltage and inductors resist changing currents, the degrees of which depend solely on values.
I always think of dV/dt with caps and di/dt with inductors, why? because that's what they do. caps resist changing voltage and inductors resist changing currents, the degrees of which depend solely on values.
infinia, with respect, you have already dissed AllenB, who tends, IMO, to know what he is talking about. 🙂
Don't patronise me about understanding electronics and mathematics. I also do. 😛
Those old partial differential equations about voltage-current relationships describe an ideal world far removed from reality.
I really don't have an axe to grind about all the components in audio. But I do think that ferrite cores and magnets are the most suspect and measurably least ideal components in audio. Capacitors and resistors seem to mostly work as advertised. What do you think?
Don't patronise me about understanding electronics and mathematics. I also do. 😛
Those old partial differential equations about voltage-current relationships describe an ideal world far removed from reality.
I really don't have an axe to grind about all the components in audio. But I do think that ferrite cores and magnets are the most suspect and measurably least ideal components in audio. Capacitors and resistors seem to mostly work as advertised. What do you think?
I just wrote down a couple of facts, i find it interesting that anyone would have a problem with that. All I wanted for us to think about, is that shunt caps might help by routing any undesirable upperband intermods generated by the imperfect cored inductor. i have no ideas about the "dissing" and "patronizing" yer referring to, perhaps that is in your imagination my friend.
obviously we live in different realities > for example given a waveform i can picture the resultant currents and voltages in a inductor and capacitor > direction AND magnitude that is missing in the frequency domain. yeah sure analyzing in the time domain is a stupid thought.
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