Hellu Ron,
°So sorry about that. My simulations says it works, so be it.°
in simulations you can´t see colourations.
°So sorry about that. My simulations says it works, so be it.°
in simulations you can´t see colourations.
the 103 fostex fq res plot looks like 87-88db. w25gr31-51f = 26hz fs, what f3 are you sims at? btw innovative looking design!
Without getting deep into it lets look at it from a normal half chang with floor loading. I simmed around a -3db loss( @ LF) if the half chang is turned 180 degrees and the mouth is no longer floor loaded.
Please remember this is a study into the effect of this type alingment.
btw innovative looking design!
Its function. The 45 degree angled bottom reflects the incoming wave to the front panel and reflects again to the back panel and interfaces the cone in a small area at a shear. While the wave front is travelling its losing some energy. Besides normal internal bracing , required on normal BRs, there will be a 2-3 interface progressive layers on the bottom reflector,front and rear internal panels. I am still working on the energy transfer and required layer materials.
in simulations you can´t see colourations.
Colorations arrive from distortion of a wave or unequal loading of the cone when a one sided load exceeds a practical amount. This was brought to my attention on the first design of the A126 by Dave and Chris. This alingment will have either a TL (unvented) or an IB action on the rear cone surface to attenuate the rear wavefront and provide as near a balance as practical.
Silly us, for thinking we might perhaps know just a little something about speaker design too.
LOL! In my years of industrial design i have had a great deal of critique, no problem , i always listen and consider every comment, its always a learning curve..
The major problem is in the fact that someone designs something, gets results that arent to expectations, then says "this cant work".
Thomas Edision was once asked how many attempts he had made in designing the light bulb. He answered "2001, but i knew 2000 ways it would not work".
ron
Without getting deep into it lets look at it from a normal half chang with floor loading. I simmed around a -3db loss( @ LF) if the half chang is turned 180 degrees and the mouth is no longer floor loaded.
Please remember this is a study into the effect of this type alingment.
btw innovative looking design!
Its function. The 45 degree angled bottom reflects the incoming wave to the front panel and reflects again to the back panel and interfaces the cone in a small area at a shear. While the wave front is travelling its losing some energy. Besides normal internal bracing , required on normal BRs, there will be a 2-3 interface progressive layers on the bottom reflector,front and rear internal panels. I am still working on the energy transfer and required layer materials.
in simulations you can´t see colourations.
Colorations arrive from distortion of a wave or unequal loading of the cone when a one sided load exceeds a practical amount. This was brought to my attention on the first design of the A126 by Dave and Chris. This alingment will have either a TL (unvented) or an IB action on the rear cone surface to attenuate the rear wavefront and provide as near a balance as practical.
Silly us, for thinking we might perhaps know just a little something about speaker design too.
LOL! In my years of industrial design i have had a great deal of critique, no problem , i always listen and consider every comment, its always a learning curve..
The major problem is in the fact that someone designs something, gets results that arent to expectations, then says "this cant work".
Thomas Edision was once asked how many attempts he had made in designing the light bulb. He answered "2001, but i knew 2000 ways it would not work".
ron
Whow guys,
built it and listen,
i am talking about time difference over 1-2 kHz
by fronthorn because the driver makes a lot on 30 °
cool down
built it and listen,
i am talking about time difference over 1-2 kHz
by fronthorn because the driver makes a lot on 30 °
cool down
Man Scott, I'm glad you never let pride & ego take over the mouth...
I was afraid I might be the only one with that fault...
Still don't see the point of jumping on anyone for building, and reporting on findings...
I've lost count of builds, not all sounded like expected.
And that's not even counting what's done @ work.
We have the fastest super computer in the world, more physicists per capita than anywhere in the world, great engineers are a dime a dozen, I'm just a prototype fabrication machinist.
But by now I can usually look @ a print and tell the designer what's gonna break first, etc...
And we do tend to mouthing off @ "engineers" that critisize those of us that just "build things" to harshly...
Yes, I've actually built Austins, have you?
Pretty colored, don't you think?
Oh, we're not supposed to talk about that here...
I was afraid I might be the only one with that fault...
Still don't see the point of jumping on anyone for building, and reporting on findings...
I've lost count of builds, not all sounded like expected.
And that's not even counting what's done @ work.
We have the fastest super computer in the world, more physicists per capita than anywhere in the world, great engineers are a dime a dozen, I'm just a prototype fabrication machinist.
But by now I can usually look @ a print and tell the designer what's gonna break first, etc...
And we do tend to mouthing off @ "engineers" that critisize those of us that just "build things" to harshly...
Yes, I've actually built Austins, have you?
Pretty colored, don't you think?
Oh, we're not supposed to talk about that here...
serenechaos said:
Pride & ego of whom?
Yup.
No, not for a long path hybrid BLH with FR drivers. Quite the reverse in fact. Ron did a remarkable job with them.
If you say so.
As for 'jumping on anyone', read 'mild irritation on behalf of a friend', and not for the reason you state. You perhaps know the background?
Pretty colored, don't you think?
The only alingment i can concieve for totally uncolored sound is either with an IB or an OB with a low diffraction front baffle. I know of your critique of the delay on horns, but any BLH is going to have that to some degree. I attempted to keep it under .010 seconds to prevent a reverb effect, it was the best i can do.
I did the best i could with the A166 given the parameters of the driver and the request for a SD cab.
But by now I can usually look @ a print and tell the designer what's gonna break first, etc...
And we do tend to mouthing off @ "engineers" that critisize those of us that just "build things" to harshly
I have never came down on those who build, ever. I do not have the skills in many cases so i leave it up to those who have. IMHO if you want to know how something works, you go to the person using the something and listen.
But by now I can usually look @ a print and tell the designer what's gonna break first, etc...
Well thats not something i can agree with. I have build many things in the past that the " build things personnel" have stated that could not work, but they do and are still in operation after many years undergoing day to day high dynamic loading.
I believe we need to get back to the subject at hand and either have a new section for subject matter such as this.
Thanks
ron
The only alingment i can concieve for totally uncolored sound is either with an IB or an OB with a low diffraction front baffle. I know of your critique of the delay on horns, but any BLH is going to have that to some degree. I attempted to keep it under .010 seconds to prevent a reverb effect, it was the best i can do.
I did the best i could with the A166 given the parameters of the driver and the request for a SD cab.
But by now I can usually look @ a print and tell the designer what's gonna break first, etc...
And we do tend to mouthing off @ "engineers" that critisize those of us that just "build things" to harshly
I have never came down on those who build, ever. I do not have the skills in many cases so i leave it up to those who have. IMHO if you want to know how something works, you go to the person using the something and listen.
But by now I can usually look @ a print and tell the designer what's gonna break first, etc...
Well thats not something i can agree with. I have build many things in the past that the " build things personnel" have stated that could not work, but they do and are still in operation after many years undergoing day to day high dynamic loading.
I believe we need to get back to the subject at hand and either have a new section for subject matter such as this.
Thanks
ron
pride & ego on anyone's part.
me, or anyone else.
we all do it from time to time don't we?
coming down on anyone else.
talking down to people.
Ok, maybe you don't find Austin's colored.
I do. Don't know how to quantify that.
The back wave doesn't sound like the front wave, besides being significantly delayed.
Otherwise, yes, Ron did a remarkable job on them.
Remarkable frequency response.
"not supposed to talk about here"
I don't get the "say so" I don't care who says what, just keep noticing what others say, not just DaveCan, but other threads too, this forum's getting strange...
me, or anyone else.
we all do it from time to time don't we?
coming down on anyone else.
talking down to people.
Ok, maybe you don't find Austin's colored.
I do. Don't know how to quantify that.
The back wave doesn't sound like the front wave, besides being significantly delayed.
Otherwise, yes, Ron did a remarkable job on them.
Remarkable frequency response.
"not supposed to talk about here"
I don't get the "say so" I don't care who says what, just keep noticing what others say, not just DaveCan, but other threads too, this forum's getting strange...
Saw my name, so just thought I'd say, Hey it's all good, this is what I've learned around here in the last week..
If I don't like the flaw's of a certain small BLH with a low driver height, it's not the BLH that is the problem, it's that I'm bigger or taller than the average listener, I'm a giant at 5'11''.. But I have found a fix to that problem, whenever I get a chance to listen to a floor standing loudspeaker with a very low driver height I shall use a yoga mat as my listening chair.
Also learned that no matter how much money one has on hand to sink into their audio system, and if your a full range single driver kind of guy, there's no use wasting your money on any other driver other than Fostex, as the jump up in any perceived SQ isn't worth the extra expense, 5 figure amp prices are ok though..
I'm sure the 138esr is a fine driver though, and so is the 206esr (I've heard that one)
Dave🙂
If I don't like the flaw's of a certain small BLH with a low driver height, it's not the BLH that is the problem, it's that I'm bigger or taller than the average listener, I'm a giant at 5'11''.. But I have found a fix to that problem, whenever I get a chance to listen to a floor standing loudspeaker with a very low driver height I shall use a yoga mat as my listening chair.
Also learned that no matter how much money one has on hand to sink into their audio system, and if your a full range single driver kind of guy, there's no use wasting your money on any other driver other than Fostex, as the jump up in any perceived SQ isn't worth the extra expense, 5 figure amp prices are ok though..
I'm sure the 138esr is a fine driver though, and so is the 206esr (I've heard that one)
Dave🙂
FE138ES-R...
Yep!
I would not purchase this driver or even design around it. Why, well its theFE138ES-R...
same as designing around a Lowther. Most in this forum will not purchase a high $ driver so they wont build a cab.
I can better help by designing around low or middle of the road cost.
Going back to IBs, even the FE138ES-R... To have an effective IB is going to take 4-5 x Vas in volume and still have to have adequate bracing. WAF prevents ( in most cases) this alingment.
In my school days my roomies and me decided on a "wall of sound" in which we mounted all the avaliable drivers on the living room wall and had the rear of the cones exiting into my room (try to sleep/study with that.)
It was in effect a massive IB. Still sounded like junk because of the about 18 drivers, but after the bong was passed around , it sounded great.
ron
Yep!
I would not purchase this driver or even design around it. Why, well its theFE138ES-R...
same as designing around a Lowther. Most in this forum will not purchase a high $ driver so they wont build a cab.
I can better help by designing around low or middle of the road cost.
Going back to IBs, even the FE138ES-R... To have an effective IB is going to take 4-5 x Vas in volume and still have to have adequate bracing. WAF prevents ( in most cases) this alingment.
In my school days my roomies and me decided on a "wall of sound" in which we mounted all the avaliable drivers on the living room wall and had the rear of the cones exiting into my room (try to sleep/study with that.)
It was in effect a massive IB. Still sounded like junk because of the about 18 drivers, but after the bong was passed around , it sounded great.
ron
FE138ES-R...
Thought that was what this thread was about...
And the driver I am trying to decide on a cabinet for...
And @ 5'11" I guess I'm a giant too?
Never thought so before, thought I was about average...
And the FE138ES-R is for a "low-level late-night type" second system, as small, full range systems have NO WAF in my house, things like five-way FLHs do.
My wife believes the hi-fi is supposed to sound good, and doesn't care what it looks like, and to her "sounds good" means be able to reproduce symphony dynamics, and still have micro information, and be able to pick out individual voices and instruments.
She heard it once, and wants it again...
So do I...
Yes Ron, I was foolish enough to buy the FE138ES-Rs on what others said about them; reviews withough even hearing, or even taking the FR graphs serious enough.
Just hoping to get a fraction of the way to where a Feastrex was for a fraction of the cost...
As was pointed out earlier; for a full range single driver kind of guy, there's no use wasting your money on any other driver other than Fostex, as the jump up in any perceived SQ isn't worth the extra expense.
And before; the FE138ES-R is "probably the best driver Fostex ever made."
So I have them and am just trying to build a simple system, simple speaker, simple amp, simple listener...
And I can't take OBs, don't like their sound at all...
So I'm down to the design Scott posted & a TH, one of the designs that came with the driver, or a simple sealed box w/ woofer & tweeter.
Or, more likely, build each, decide what I like from there.
I know it's a waste of time for some, but, I run sims @ work & sometimes @ home even, but don't really believe what I'm gonna hear until I hear it. Too many times something something pops up that wasn't thought of...
Robert
Thought that was what this thread was about...
And the driver I am trying to decide on a cabinet for...
And @ 5'11" I guess I'm a giant too?
Never thought so before, thought I was about average...
And the FE138ES-R is for a "low-level late-night type" second system, as small, full range systems have NO WAF in my house, things like five-way FLHs do.
My wife believes the hi-fi is supposed to sound good, and doesn't care what it looks like, and to her "sounds good" means be able to reproduce symphony dynamics, and still have micro information, and be able to pick out individual voices and instruments.
She heard it once, and wants it again...
So do I...
Yes Ron, I was foolish enough to buy the FE138ES-Rs on what others said about them; reviews withough even hearing, or even taking the FR graphs serious enough.
Just hoping to get a fraction of the way to where a Feastrex was for a fraction of the cost...
As was pointed out earlier; for a full range single driver kind of guy, there's no use wasting your money on any other driver other than Fostex, as the jump up in any perceived SQ isn't worth the extra expense.
And before; the FE138ES-R is "probably the best driver Fostex ever made."
So I have them and am just trying to build a simple system, simple speaker, simple amp, simple listener...
And I can't take OBs, don't like their sound at all...
So I'm down to the design Scott posted & a TH, one of the designs that came with the driver, or a simple sealed box w/ woofer & tweeter.
Or, more likely, build each, decide what I like from there.
I know it's a waste of time for some, but, I run sims @ work & sometimes @ home even, but don't really believe what I'm gonna hear until I hear it. Too many times something something pops up that wasn't thought of...
Robert
Don't people usually put short speakers like those on stands?DaveCan said:
Just like fonkens & such?
Otherwise, how tall is the "average" listener who finds them @ ear level, sitting in an "average" chair?
Or like Merlin, build the cabinet a little taller, & fill the bottom with sand.
I heard someone doing an A - B demo @ RMAF w/ small Avalons, (about the same size as the offending BLH).
Pretty noticable difference getting the driver up to listening level.
Or, of course, just sit on the floor, like Dave the giant...
When your presented with a design to listen too, you listen and have your own understanding of how it sounds to you or any flaws etc.. I mentioned about the flaw of driver height ,among other things that I didn't dig about it.. I offered the advice of, would be nice to see this re-worked to bring up the driver height ( big mistake).. But then was basically told that I'm too tall and that's what the prob is, not the design. As far as I know a certain down south horn, and the one in my neck of the woods, are not supposed to be on stands, and are presented as a floor standing speaker design and offered as such.. But as I am a gentle giant by nature ,I racked my brain for the few brain cells that are left, and discovered that a yoga mat will solve this apparent problem I have, if ever I decide to sit down with those little floor standers again ( highly unlikely)..
Looking at the price of a pair of the 138 drivers, I wonder how the small lowther's may compare.. I think the A45 or A55 may be close in outlay, but not quite sure, they are alnico though..
Dave🙂
Looking at the price of a pair of the 138 drivers, I wonder how the small lowther's may compare.. I think the A45 or A55 may be close in outlay, but not quite sure, they are alnico though..
Dave🙂
"There's a few things learned in the past few days/weeks."
I find it funny that the problem would be in the height of the listener, and mentioning your thoughts would be a mistake...
Maybe there's more to it than that...
Don't know A45 / A55 price offhand either thougn.
These do sound noticably less "harsh" than I remember Lowthers being.
Which is really saying something I guess...
r
What I find interesting is how some people take the discussions when people get together & listen.DaveCan said:
I find it funny that the problem would be in the height of the listener, and mentioning your thoughts would be a mistake...
Maybe there's more to it than that...
I haven't heard 138's & Lowthers in the same room, and the one pair of 138s I have heard still aren't broken in, or in a decent (proper design) cabinet, but they (138s) are getting smoother, and don't have the "shout" that seems to come from whizzers (?)DaveCan said:
Don't know A45 / A55 price offhand either thougn.
These do sound noticably less "harsh" than I remember Lowthers being.
Which is really saying something I guess...
r
Well, come on over.DaveCan said:
We can both sit on yoga mats!
No, I build stuff for "giants."
DaveCan said:
FWIW, the Austin 126 are approx 9" taller than the either the Frugelhorn or Hornshoppe,. If the driver height of 37" is too low, and depending on your listening distance, raising the front of the cabinet by less than an inch would likely tilt the vertical dispersion angle enough to get you back on axis.
PS. a quick calculation shows that at a listening distance of 8ft, raising the front of the A126 cabinet 1" would tilt the vertical axis 3degrees, raising the height of direct on-axis center by over 7". (from approx 36" to 43")
In the case of the Frugelhorn and Hornshoppe, those numbers approx 4degrees and over 7" of tilt , from approx 27" to over 34" at the same distance of 8'.
DaveCan said:
You are reading too much into into Dave. The Frugel-Horn was designed to meet a certain set of goals & limits (and that was stated). One of those limits makes the horn the size it is. If the driver height doesn't meet your requirements then there are other offerings. Why redisign it so that it moves away from the niche it is designed for and move it into a niche already covered off by another design, that is why there is more than 1 choice, choose the one that best suits. The driver height is not a flaw, it is just a limitation inherent in the design brief.
I would not put these on stands or otherwise augment the height. That would detract from its ability to be a corner horn. Nothing to stop one from "wedging the front" so that it fires upwards at an angle -- wouldn't take much to have it diring directly at you head... there you are, limitation solved.
dave
sc i think yould like the bach loaded bass horn / front loaded midrange horn up firing (to reflector), pm 4a / (bi-amped and attenuated), direct firing pm 2a audiovector enclosure / klipschorn x @ ~70hz sub. simple eh🙂 o.k. shoot me for being envious of those 4" alnico 108 drivers to try in rons latest.