Fane 12-250TC or 15-300TC in a large sealed enclosure

[planet10]

Both these drivers have a higher QTS than the specs claim.

That is very often the seeming result when speakers ar emeasured with cheap kit. It is unlikely to be much different than factory, just taken off at a different part of the T/S curves.

Still to high to fit into a box without biggish openings unless you like that bump at the bottom and having undersamed bass.

dave

 

[planet10]

…boffle...

RadioElectronics Article

HiFi article

The Patent.

I plan on doing something like this for my quad of Visaton B200.

dave

 

[DaveCan]

That is very often the seeming result when speakers ar emeasured with cheap kit. It is unlikely to be much different than factory, just taken off at a different part of the T/S curves.

Still to high to fit into a box without biggish openings unless you like that bump at the bottom and having undersamed bass.

dave

Hi Dave,
I think I read somewhere a long while ago that either Freddi or Norman Bates measured the 12" 250TC and the qts was .8 or just a bit more? I imagine most are near spec but perhaps they are a bit higher as well. All in all probably a safe bet for OB/IB/Open Back/Open Bottom etc etc ..

 

[Steve Cresswell]

OK, I pulled the trigger on the plywood. Got some nice thick baltic birch ply pieces from my local supplier outlet. All together 31 euros!

Front and rear walls are 28mm birch ply, the rest is 24mm. I will add a brace in the middle like Steve Cresswell did. Measurements of the box will be: height 810 mm, width 400 mm and depth 430 mm. It will be around 100 litres.

Should be fine, with a nice tight bottom end. Earthquake inducing infra-sonics won’t be a feature of the bass response but you can’t expect that from 100dB efficient speakers in a “reasonably” sized box. Laws of physics etc

 

[planet10]

… and the qts was .8 or just a bit more?

That is a scalar. T/S are curves and the set of numbers you get depend on where they are taken off.

dave

 

[swb502]

Sorry it took me awhile to find it;

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/310270-range-build-12-driver-61.html#post5259813

"I went ahead and made a cardboard mockup of a plate type lens. Plates are 4" deep x 15" wide, with a 60 deg total angle cutout in the middle, and they are mounted at a 45 deg angle. This was just a sort of rough shot in the dark.

Yet, the difference is pretty impressive... the beam out of the Fane was maybe 15 degrees wide or something, now its a full 60 deg wide. It sounds great, I haven't heard anything weird with it yet. It did mute the highs a bit, so they were eq'd up a little to compensate. Coincidentally , it also seems to deflect the sound downward somewhat - despite the jokes that it does not. (It really does point some sound down for short people... lol) In my case, this is ideal as the seated listening position is below the centerline of the Fane by approx 8 inches.

I haven't seen anyone try a beam blocker, I saw it recommend on another board somewhere:

Weber 12" Beam Blacker 4" Dome Improve the Sound of | Reverb

 

[thimios]

Who can answer my question.
I'm interesting for a set of full range speakers for amplifiers testing purpose.
What is your recommendations,fane 12"or15"?
What is the cabinet recommendation if i'm interesting for speakers alone good bass, no dsp not equalizer?

 

[DaveCan]

this is worth trying, it s what I had in mind when I built my 15” speaker

A Big'un - the Audio Nirvana Super 15

There’s a related design called the Boffle, you can Google that.

Cool thanks! And sorry I haven't been getting my notifications for some reason so I miss a lot on here when I post, although I'm not posting much anyhow etc.
I'll check out the Boffle thank you.
I have an idea for a floor stander that I may try using the 12'' Fane TC or perhaps the 15" TC along with an 18" in an open bottom cab.

 

[Bigun]

Dave,

<everyone, pls. excuse the OT here>

If $ are not a primary limitation consider the audio nirvana super ferrite, the 12" to me has a more balanced looking freq. response (on spec. sheet) compared with the Fane. The FR is similar to the 15" version I have and I've not had to resort to cardboard, filters or anything else despite being somewhat sensitive to ragged treble (I can't abide the Fostex FE127). I was going to get a pair of the AN 12" but the Trump Tax has killed that for now. The Fane looks very interesting too, but I'm confident that I would not live with the treble response. If you don't ming taking a leap into the dark there's a pair of drivers that I might be tempted to try myself: 2 unit DavidLouis P12 hiend 12 inch fullrange full range speaker | eBay

 

[KaffiMann]

The Fane 12-250TC and the AN Super 12 FERRITE are not that different looking at the graphs.
Biggest difference is the way the graphs are depicted, and the resolution.
Look carefully on the distance between dividers etc.
SOVEREIGN 12-250TC
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an12cfspecs.jpg

Both have rising response, both have a 8-9db difference from 600hz to ca 1800hz or so, the Fane lists 0 degrees and 45 degrees off axis, the AN only lists 0 degrees.
The Fane seems to have a more predictable response, IE constant rising, the AN seems to have more peaks and dips.
I think they'd be relatively compareable in a real life scenario.

 

[GM]

Hello!

There are lot of info spread around in different topics about those drivers, I will post all my questions here in one topic.

1. I only want to build a sealed cabinet not vented. I am after that "old school" 60's "huge/live/open" sound and feel.
2. One option is to build something similar to this: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker. - Page 2 - audio-talk Has anyone built something similar but with 15 inch driver?
3. Someone here in diyaudio said that to hear the difference between 12 and 15, the cabinet for the 15 needs to be at least twice as big, for example 225 litres. Is that true? What f3 would 15 incher achieve with 100L and with 225L sealed cabinet? I read somewhere that 12 in a 80L sealed cabinet gives f3 around 64hz.
4. How much does cabinet shape affect sound with drivers and enclosures this big? I would like to build something higher and thinner, is that a bad idea?

Greets!

For truly 'old school', one needs to size the cab using pioneer's Vb = Vas/1.44 and if under-damped, then damp to 'taste' or use the 'click' test or a computer program's impulse response measurement to dial out any 'ringing' to 'critically' damped [0.707 Qtc] and if over-damped, then that's what bass/treble tone controls were/are for: Click Test | GM210 | Flickr

Ideally, measured Vas is required, but published is usually good enough, so 12" = ~54.15 L net, 15" = ~140.97 L net.

As long as a sealed box is a common acoustic or golden ratio, i.e. presumed to have a ~uniform particle density, then driver location is moot, but as Scott noted, once it becomes a high aspect ratio, which is fine, then the driver ideally needs to be at an open pipe's 1st harmonic = midpoint.

GM

 

[GM]

Who can answer my question.
I'm interesting for a set of full range speakers for amplifiers testing purpose.
What is your recommendations,fane 12"or15"?
What is the cabinet recommendation if i'm interesting for speakers alone good bass, no dsp not equalizer?

The one with the widest BW = 12"

Depends on how big a box you can tolerate for a BLH or other form of TL.

GM

 

[Bigun]

The Fane 12-250TC and the AN Super 12 FERRITE are not that different looking at the graphs.
Biggest difference is the way the graphs are depicted, and the resolution.
Look carefully on the distance between dividers etc.
SOVEREIGN 12-250TC
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an12cfspecs.jpg

Both have rising response, both have a 8-9db difference from 600hz to ca 1800hz or so, the Fane lists 0 degrees and 45 degrees off axis, the AN only lists 0 degrees.
The Fane seems to have a more predictable response, IE constant rising, the AN seems to have more peaks and dips.
I think they'd be relatively compareable in a real life scenario.

that's a good point - I just can't reconcile that with my observation that I find my ears v. sensitive to treble shout based on many different speakers yet have no issues with the audio nirvana 15" even close to on-axis, whilst I also read in more than one place that people do have issues with the hot treble on the fane 12"

 

[GM]

It comes down to the 'quality' of the sound as it relates to the individual. For instance, circa 2000 a local had built a little 2 way monitor with a 6.5" and alum. dome tweeter that was smooth as a baby's bottom and a joy to mine ears, then built another pair except with some new fancy $$$$ prosound ribbon tweeter that measured the same out to ~90 deg except needing to be shelved down a fair amount and while just as smooth and much more transparent/diaphanous [too much so for me], ~instantly made my head ache to the point of having to exit the room post haste.

I've had this problem a lot with whizzers, hence my practice of often needing to both literally and figuratively knead the starch out of them to 'taste'.

GM

 

[DaveCan]

That's good info GM re the whizzer type speakers. They can be manipulated and or softened, doped, add some felt tweaks, dot them if you're into that, shave them or cut them to various shapes, add foam over them alike to what Geddes does to his creations etc etc and on and on. Ton's of tweaks for these types of drivers for those that would rather not EQ to tame most any whizzard driver within reason. Or simply toe them in or out until they suit a person's ears and room etc.

 

[BrockLanders]

So, one more question. Are there any 12 inch alternatives to Fane 12-250TC, which have the same range and are priced similarly? Except without that "hot treble" issue. I just want to build something simple and "big sounding", I don't want to mess with DSP-s etc Or is Fane the only cost effective option and I have to just order this stuff from ebay and build a cover for the driver?

Acoustone P101 Silver/Turquoise Fender Style Amp Cloth Price per Yard 36" x 36" | eBay

 

[KaffiMann]

It comes down to the 'quality' of the sound as it relates to the individual. For instance, circa 2000 a local had built a little 2 way monitor with a 6.5" and alum. dome tweeter that was smooth as a baby's bottom and a joy to mine ears, then built another pair except with some new fancy $$$$ prosound ribbon tweeter that measured the same out to ~90 deg except needing to be shelved down a fair amount and while just as smooth and much more transparent/diaphanous [too much so for me], ~instantly made my head ache to the point of having to exit the room post haste.

Sounds like problems with reflections off hard surfaces due to reduced beaming.
Probably better sounding outside on a big lawn.


BrockLanders, the market for cheap and big FR's is somewhat limited. Unless you want to evaluate something along the lines of the single wizzer Eminence 12LTA and equivalents, there's not much else, and the Fane triple cones are a bit alone in the ability to cover so much of the frequency range, and at loud volumes.

They are not the flattest response, most neutral drivers, but take them for what they are. If you can accept or deal with some weaknesses, they're excellent.

 

[GM]

Highly unlikely considering the very large hotel conference room, construction/furnishings, ceiling versus speaker pedestal height and number of folks both seated and milling around the LP, i.e. it was a very crowded DIY Meet.

GM

 

[GM]

Or simply toe them in or out until they suit a person's ears and room etc.

Yeah, lots of tweaking options and lest we not forget probably the only 'one stop shop' tweak, the Lowther $0.98 mod. : Modifications

Frankly, I consider toe-in be done first as this has generally solved the core problem with 'hot'/'shouty' wide range speakers, then either tweak or just cap off a super tweeter up high to 'taste' to fade in the last [half] octave or so.

GM

 

[GM]

So, one more question. Are there any 12 inch alternatives to Fane 12-250TC, which have the same range and are priced similarly? Except without that "hot treble" issue.

This type of driver is primarily for public address [PA] [horn loaded] apps, so will have a generally 'hot' response to 'throw', pierce through' a high ambient noise background at high speech intelligibility and with the pioneer's large 'full range' HIFI drivers either long gone or expensive collectibles there really is little to choose from except in the < ~ 6.5" small frame sizes.

GM