Yo, people!
I humbly suggest that there's F5 power amplifier thread to discuss building details like coils and such... This thread, however, is about listening impressions! Keep 'em coming!
Now I have boards and parts for Aleph-X and KSA50 here, unfortunately I have very little time for my DIY endeavours, with work and kids and all.. Anyone here directly compared the sound of F5 with Aleph-X and KSA50?
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!
I humbly suggest that there's F5 power amplifier thread to discuss building details like coils and such... This thread, however, is about listening impressions! Keep 'em coming!
Now I have boards and parts for Aleph-X and KSA50 here, unfortunately I have very little time for my DIY endeavours, with work and kids and all.. Anyone here directly compared the sound of F5 with Aleph-X and KSA50?
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!
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Bear's original intent with this thread was to talk about not only what he was hearing, but what specific parts and implementations were changing the character/sound of the F5. Coils are mentioned because those who use them in the PS for the F5 notice an improvement in sound quality. In my system there is virtually no noise being pushed through speakers. Voices and instruments sound natural and highly defined, able to sit within there own space inside the music. Besides NP's super design, much of this quality I credit to CLCLC PS. It is superior to CRC powering the F5.
We compared the F5 I built to the Leben CS300 today. The Leben is a very nice 12W/ch tube amp (EL84P-P), and costs around $3000 retail.
Speakers were the Usher Mini-Dancers, source was a slightly optimised PC source with a Buffalo DAC connected to the digital output of a E-mu1212m sound card.
Cables used with the F5 were Cardas Twinlink+Crosslink set up for biwiring, with the Leben we used a single run of the TDK/Hitachi OCC speaker cable, nothing fancy in both cases.
To keep things very concise - The F5 could not match the Leben's liquid and effortless midrange presentation. At the same time, the Leben did not have either the bass grip or the extended and clear top end of the F5.
I did not spend too much time listening to the Leben personally with my reference tracks due to some interruptions with phone calls, but the panel (3 others) seemed to all have this view, which I agreed with.
All in all, either amp would work, depending on what one was looking for. The owner of the Leben was not the kind to listen to any bass-heavy music (just Jazz and Indian Classical), and I like a grippy and fast bottom end with most of my music.
The big letdown for the F5 was the lack of sufficient gain, which was not sufficient on very well-recorded CDs (low level) to drive the speakers to the maximum output capability of the F5. Another 6dB would have worked, but 12dB would be the required additional gain. On some CDs the Leben outscored the F5 simply for the latter's lack of sufficient volume, even though it is half the power output of the F5 it seemed to a lot louder, where the F5 was stranded at halfway house.
We are hoping to compare this to the Jaton Operetta soon - though that amp is in a much lower price class, it is said to be a 'giant-killer'. I know that the equipment here is usually much better than the stuff I'm comparing it to, but we audio and music lovers are a very small community in India, so we are grateful for whatever we get.
Personally, I'm happy that I got a killer piece of equipment for myself at a very reasonable outlay. We all felt the Leben and the F5 were different animals, and that subjective taste would be the ultimate decision maker between these two amps (not that we were making any decisions
).
Speakers were the Usher Mini-Dancers, source was a slightly optimised PC source with a Buffalo DAC connected to the digital output of a E-mu1212m sound card.
Cables used with the F5 were Cardas Twinlink+Crosslink set up for biwiring, with the Leben we used a single run of the TDK/Hitachi OCC speaker cable, nothing fancy in both cases.
To keep things very concise - The F5 could not match the Leben's liquid and effortless midrange presentation. At the same time, the Leben did not have either the bass grip or the extended and clear top end of the F5.
I did not spend too much time listening to the Leben personally with my reference tracks due to some interruptions with phone calls, but the panel (3 others) seemed to all have this view, which I agreed with.
All in all, either amp would work, depending on what one was looking for. The owner of the Leben was not the kind to listen to any bass-heavy music (just Jazz and Indian Classical), and I like a grippy and fast bottom end with most of my music.
The big letdown for the F5 was the lack of sufficient gain, which was not sufficient on very well-recorded CDs (low level) to drive the speakers to the maximum output capability of the F5. Another 6dB would have worked, but 12dB would be the required additional gain. On some CDs the Leben outscored the F5 simply for the latter's lack of sufficient volume, even though it is half the power output of the F5 it seemed to a lot louder, where the F5 was stranded at halfway house.
We are hoping to compare this to the Jaton Operetta soon - though that amp is in a much lower price class, it is said to be a 'giant-killer'. I know that the equipment here is usually much better than the stuff I'm comparing it to, but we audio and music lovers are a very small community in India, so we are grateful for whatever we get.
Personally, I'm happy that I got a killer piece of equipment for myself at a very reasonable outlay. We all felt the Leben and the F5 were different animals, and that subjective taste would be the ultimate decision maker between these two amps (not that we were making any decisions
).
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Please do explain , as I'm not familiar with that kind of PS setup. Could you also post a schematic of your CLCLC PS ..
Sangram :
Was it you did not have sufficient pre-amp gain ? does anyone know what is the required voltage to drive an F5 to full output ?...
In answer to the coil questions I would say to d/l PSUD II. It's so easy that I figured it out in about 20 minutes and I can now model power supplies with the odds and ends I have sitting around at home. It also greatly helped my understanding of how swapping parts would effect noise andthe start up behavior... both things that allow me to optimize without spending a bunch of extra money.
i.e. Is CRCLC a better option than CLCRC? What happens when I put larger capacitors in the first C vs. the last C (it makes more than a bit of difference, in both noise and transient behavior).
i.e. Is CRCLC a better option than CLCRC? What happens when I put larger capacitors in the first C vs. the last C (it makes more than a bit of difference, in both noise and transient behavior).
Should be fine.
For power supply apps where it is in essence a LP filter imho there is no real benefit to using "botique" or "fancy" inductors. All you need is to be sure that the thing you pick doesn't saturate significantly at 2.3amps and whatever your rail voltage is... ie. P = 2.3 x 24 (for example)
If you have it on hand, then just put it in the circuit and see if it gets hot or not. simple enough.
_-_-
Thanks for the explaination Doug.
d to the g,
I used 0.1ohm in my power supply. Perhaps 1R is too much?
Yes I am, and yes I do. Jensen 4 pole>480uf to ground>2mH aircore. I am not recommending these values or parts, but it's what I had lying around that worked well. The cap to ground didn't measure as doing anything but still remains for now.
My medieval PS will crush your puny CRC
Hi compressit,
WOW, and to quote Paris Hilton "That's hot!"
I'm guessing 2mH for the jFets is more than necessary. Can you estimate an appropriate value?
Hello Sangram,
You can change the NFB resistors (R5-R8) to alter the sound,
if you put 150ohm resistors (75ohm ||) you reduce the NFB and
the sound will become softer (more liquid as you say) and at the same time the gain will be higher.
Peter Daniël did this in his version of the F5, see the original F5 thread for more info about this mod.
Regards,
Danny
You can change the NFB resistors (R5-R8) to alter the sound,
if you put 150ohm resistors (75ohm ||) you reduce the NFB and
the sound will become softer (more liquid as you say) and at the same time the gain will be higher.
Peter Daniël did this in his version of the F5, see the original F5 thread for more info about this mod.
Regards,
Danny
Hi Fran,
As I recall from the F5 thread, Magura & ZM recommended between L= 2mH to 2.5mH for CLC, air-core, 10 to 14g wire. The caveat being that CLC sounds better when in class A, but worse when the amp moves to class AB.
It seems to me that it would only sound worse when it went into AB if the extra current draw pulled the filter out of being a filter... imparting additional nasties into the rail.... but that might be fairly simple to observe on a 'scope, if that was what is happening.
Otherwise, i see no reason that ought to be so...
_-_-bear
EDIT: along those lines babaloo's suggestion of the cap multiplier might show something in terms of sound quality altering when going between class A and AB, since the output of the cap multiplier ought to vary somewhat linearly WRT current draw, if we are assuming that there is (and comparing to) some sort of "break" point with the inductor filter as it goes from steady state (class A) to into dynamic current draw (class AB)... although I seem to think that the cap multiplier will lag the current draw to some extent... which will lead people to start thinking about really fast vregs? I think that is a dead end in power amp circuits, but who knows, I often have to change my mind about these things...
EDIT 2: of course class A isn't really "steady state" current draw... so... why would the sound change going from A to AB due to a CLC filter??
Otherwise, i see no reason that ought to be so...
_-_-bear
EDIT: along those lines babaloo's suggestion of the cap multiplier might show something in terms of sound quality altering when going between class A and AB, since the output of the cap multiplier ought to vary somewhat linearly WRT current draw, if we are assuming that there is (and comparing to) some sort of "break" point with the inductor filter as it goes from steady state (class A) to into dynamic current draw (class AB)... although I seem to think that the cap multiplier will lag the current draw to some extent... which will lead people to start thinking about really fast vregs? I think that is a dead end in power amp circuits, but who knows, I often have to change my mind about these things...
EDIT 2: of course class A isn't really "steady state" current draw... so... why would the sound change going from A to AB due to a CLC filter??
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Mmmmm, the only inductors I have here are 20 gauge. I have a dual mono setup so I would need 4 in total. I reckon 2mh inductors in 10g will be seriously $$$.
Might try a smaller one pulled from a power supply with a nice cap at the end of the psu first.
The other thing is that inductors of that rating would be pretty large and heavy....
Fran
Might try a smaller one pulled from a power supply with a nice cap at the end of the psu first.
The other thing is that inductors of that rating would be pretty large and heavy....
Fran
Hi Bear,
I've not made a CLC power supply (yet). I was just going from what I remember reading before from others. See posts #5213 & 5214 from the F5 thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/121228-f5-power-amplifier-522.html
Magnet wire and some time!
and inductors have this tendency to cross talk with EVERYTHING.