janusz
first
a good amp is the one that sounds good let me give you an example you have low dist thats meaningless right?
why because you think that dist is bad not it isnt i say
dist not audible means nothing for example say the linearity
is good the numbers show it however this creates a trend
towards amps with similar design critiria in other words even
though those numbers mean nothing you are under the illusion
that you have the foundation of faithful reproduction while other
amp parameters that may contribute to some kind of merit are
being overlooked,once i was sceptical about this too lack of knowledge the one you dont subscribe can create such reactions
the illusion that all dist is bad is a myth to the ear this is
most true to give you another example tube amps rarely include
numbers the reason is not that they are bad i have seen some
tube amps with good figures when it comes to dist as well
it is the harmonics dist which is not considered bad that characterises their sonics now compare this to an amp with low
dist and to which people say it doesnt sound good to the ear
there is evidence that low dist has nothing to do with good
sounding amps there have been other people who have told
me that second i am against blind tests when you blind people
they get confused the ears work best when you can see at the
same time it makes you relaxed and more focused on listening
blind listening is confusing and primitive it creates phychological
effects by which the brain and ear switch to survival mode
again speed is not as important as some might want you to
believe
the fact of the matter is that today people like to listen to amps
rather than buy by numbers alone is an amazing thing for decades people have been selling one type of product with
low dist at astronomical prices that when it came down to
sound they told you it was the ultimate while at the same
time there might have been products considered low end
because of numbers that were meaningless but actually were
good sounding when it came to comparison's tests etc...
kind regards
john
first
a good amp is the one that sounds good let me give you an example you have low dist thats meaningless right?
why because you think that dist is bad not it isnt i say
dist not audible means nothing for example say the linearity
is good the numbers show it however this creates a trend
towards amps with similar design critiria in other words even
though those numbers mean nothing you are under the illusion
that you have the foundation of faithful reproduction while other
amp parameters that may contribute to some kind of merit are
being overlooked,once i was sceptical about this too lack of knowledge the one you dont subscribe can create such reactions
the illusion that all dist is bad is a myth to the ear this is
most true to give you another example tube amps rarely include
numbers the reason is not that they are bad i have seen some
tube amps with good figures when it comes to dist as well
it is the harmonics dist which is not considered bad that characterises their sonics now compare this to an amp with low
dist and to which people say it doesnt sound good to the ear
there is evidence that low dist has nothing to do with good
sounding amps there have been other people who have told
me that second i am against blind tests when you blind people
they get confused the ears work best when you can see at the
same time it makes you relaxed and more focused on listening
blind listening is confusing and primitive it creates phychological
effects by which the brain and ear switch to survival mode
again speed is not as important as some might want you to
believe
the fact of the matter is that today people like to listen to amps
rather than buy by numbers alone is an amazing thing for decades people have been selling one type of product with
low dist at astronomical prices that when it came down to
sound they told you it was the ultimate while at the same
time there might have been products considered low end
because of numbers that were meaningless but actually were
good sounding when it came to comparison's tests etc...
kind regards
john
johndiy said:
It's a perfect case of the emperor having no clothes. If you buy into the hype, of course you'll believe that one amplifier (or cable, or whatever) sounds better. Only true double blind testing is able to separate "I want it to be true" stuff from reality.
johndiy said:
People buy what the marketers tell them to buy. This year it might be valves, next year it'll be single ended transistor amps "we were _so_ wrong with the valve thing, what can we have been thinking". The year after it'll be class D FET amps.
The important thing is that it changes, so the mugs trade in their gear every few years for the latest fad. And they believe, they really believe, that the new stuff sounds better, because they're told to by those with a vested interest.
I'm not buying an amp. I'm making my own. I'm not even making an amp to sell to others, so I'm in the very special position of being able to strive to make it the best amp I can, using all the science available to me. After all, it's me that it's got to please.
Regards,
Suzy
aem 6000
John,
Nobody blinds people in blind tests. They can look wherever they wish and whenever they wish. These tests are called “blind” because people do not know to which system (speakers, PA or whatever is tested) they are listening to. Now, when it comes to aural perception, actually many people prefer to listen to music with closed eyes. Go to some philharmonic concert and look around. But that is individual choice.
Ideal amplifier to many people (and to me) is the one, which does not add anything at all to the input signal. It only amplifies. Coloration, if somebody likes it, could be then introduced by some separate unit designed for that purpose. Unfortunately, there are no such amps and probably will never be in this world. All audio equipment introduces distortion/coloration.
Now, individuals have a choice – either to go for the nicest sounding system (to them) or for the most faithful sounding system to them as even here our brains differ. The latter is very difficult as one would have to organize special sessions in which such subjective evaluation of live and amplified sources could be carried out.
Because of the above, if someone is after the most faithful amp then specs help to limit the choice for audition and comparisons. Most agree that THD alone does not tell enough. One has to take into account many other characteristics of which all kinds of intermodulation distortions are very important. So are crossover distortions if it is a relevant issue to the given amp class etc.
If on the other hand one is after the nicest sounding system then audition alone will do. And it’s fine. One is entitled to make oneself happy with the kind of coloration one likes best and or kinds of distortions one can tolerate.
When it comes to buying and selling Suzy is right. Audio industry is a big business. I am economist. I can tell a few stories how businesses operate and the role of marketing and advertising. The latter are specifically designed to bend people in the desired direction and blind them to see merits of competitive products.
Cheers,
John,
Nobody blinds people in blind tests. They can look wherever they wish and whenever they wish. These tests are called “blind” because people do not know to which system (speakers, PA or whatever is tested) they are listening to. Now, when it comes to aural perception, actually many people prefer to listen to music with closed eyes. Go to some philharmonic concert and look around. But that is individual choice.
Ideal amplifier to many people (and to me) is the one, which does not add anything at all to the input signal. It only amplifies. Coloration, if somebody likes it, could be then introduced by some separate unit designed for that purpose. Unfortunately, there are no such amps and probably will never be in this world. All audio equipment introduces distortion/coloration.
Now, individuals have a choice – either to go for the nicest sounding system (to them) or for the most faithful sounding system to them as even here our brains differ. The latter is very difficult as one would have to organize special sessions in which such subjective evaluation of live and amplified sources could be carried out.
Because of the above, if someone is after the most faithful amp then specs help to limit the choice for audition and comparisons. Most agree that THD alone does not tell enough. One has to take into account many other characteristics of which all kinds of intermodulation distortions are very important. So are crossover distortions if it is a relevant issue to the given amp class etc.
If on the other hand one is after the nicest sounding system then audition alone will do. And it’s fine. One is entitled to make oneself happy with the kind of coloration one likes best and or kinds of distortions one can tolerate.
When it comes to buying and selling Suzy is right. Audio industry is a big business. I am economist. I can tell a few stories how businesses operate and the role of marketing and advertising. The latter are specifically designed to bend people in the desired direction and blind them to see merits of competitive products.
Cheers,
Listening tests.
I'm currently laying on the sofa listening to my new amp. It looks pretty frightening, as I haven't yet finished the enclosure, so the monoblocks are sitting on a chopping board on the floor, with toriodals sitting next to them.
Anyway, the complete setup is:
NAD T524 DVD player
Homebrew preamp (using PGA2310 volume control with OPA2134 opamps)
Homebrew poweramp (based on Tilbrooks AEM6000)
Infinity RS-5b speakers.
My 35 year old ears.
I'm drooling. This thing has revealed detail in my music that I just never realised was there. Now I've gotta go through my whole CD collection again. It's incredibly quiet. In between tracks, there's not so much as a whisper from the speakers, even if I stick my ears right up to them.
It's a little scary, as there's none of the usual clues that you've got the volume up too high. No distortion, no mud. Just clarity. I wound Telegraph Road up to -10dB, and it was good. Real good.
I'm just not equipped with the vocabulary to relate the listening experience, except to say that I'm totally blown away.
Regards,
Suzy
I'm currently laying on the sofa listening to my new amp. It looks pretty frightening, as I haven't yet finished the enclosure, so the monoblocks are sitting on a chopping board on the floor, with toriodals sitting next to them.
Anyway, the complete setup is:
NAD T524 DVD player
Homebrew preamp (using PGA2310 volume control with OPA2134 opamps)
Homebrew poweramp (based on Tilbrooks AEM6000)
Infinity RS-5b speakers.
My 35 year old ears.
I'm drooling. This thing has revealed detail in my music that I just never realised was there. Now I've gotta go through my whole CD collection again. It's incredibly quiet. In between tracks, there's not so much as a whisper from the speakers, even if I stick my ears right up to them.
It's a little scary, as there's none of the usual clues that you've got the volume up too high. No distortion, no mud. Just clarity. I wound Telegraph Road up to -10dB, and it was good. Real good.
I'm just not equipped with the vocabulary to relate the listening experience, except to say that I'm totally blown away.
Regards,
Suzy
It's incredibly quiet. In between tracks, there's not so much as a whisper from the speakers, even if I stick my ears right up to them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
may i ask what value of capacitance per rail did you use
what spk load and how much power is the amp rated
regards
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
may i ask what value of capacitance per rail did you use
what spk load and how much power is the amp rated
regards
suzyj said:
Suzy, you are quite outspoken about all this stuff and you
have just finished your first amp and plugged in a set of RS5's.
It's like bicycle frames...
I am buying a roadie (road bicycle) next year and will go a carbon /
alumimium composite but there are still loads of people out there
that swear by those clunky old flexy, heavy (531 etc) silver
soldered alloy steel frames... they must be the bicycle equivalent
of single ended triodes 🙂
I don't really get that whole steel frame thing... but I still respect
their opinions and know their choices are based on things I
don't completely understand or relate to (yet).
cheers
Terry
Mostly done
Hi guys,
Having cleaned things up a little, and mostly done the case, here's a pic of (mostly) the final thing:
I've still got to do the front panel and build the muting circuit, but otherwise 'tis done.
Cheers,
Suzy
PS: Thanks heaps to those who've helped along the way.
Hi guys,
Having cleaned things up a little, and mostly done the case, here's a pic of (mostly) the final thing:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've still got to do the front panel and build the muting circuit, but otherwise 'tis done.
Cheers,
Suzy
PS: Thanks heaps to those who've helped along the way.
Suzy,
You have built your amp beautifully, obviously taken a lot of pride.
You make some bold statements about marketing, and perceived quality of audio amps. Neither are you afraid to take on the sacred cows of audio.
However, having built your own, taken a journey and produced the goods, are you prepared to admit that you have a stake in the amp sounding good, and therefore it WILL sound good?
Speaking of the Emperor's new clothes, we buy clothes to suit ourselves (literally) and we think our choice is good and they are just fine. But others might well shudder at our taste........
The market taste changes. This is to be expected. Fads and fashions exist in all human endeavour, and it is no wonder that the marketers exploit this, perhaps cynically, to move product. After all, the people who launch these marketing campaigns are not the same people who design and engineer them.
I know the AEM6000 amp is pretty good, others have commented favourably too, but I would suggest there are other amps that sound good, and possibly even better!
You come out very strongly in favour of zero measured distortion and justify this with purist, engineering notions of correctness (and convention). It is difficult to argue against this, but how do you explain the huge popularity of the SET, with its horrific measured distortion? I don't want to challenge you or be rude about this, but you might ponder that an amp is not just a scientific apparatus but also a musical instrument, and that the two purposes should be complementary......
Congratulations on a nicely made and executed amplifier!
Cheers,
Hugh
You have built your amp beautifully, obviously taken a lot of pride.
You make some bold statements about marketing, and perceived quality of audio amps. Neither are you afraid to take on the sacred cows of audio.
However, having built your own, taken a journey and produced the goods, are you prepared to admit that you have a stake in the amp sounding good, and therefore it WILL sound good?
Speaking of the Emperor's new clothes, we buy clothes to suit ourselves (literally) and we think our choice is good and they are just fine. But others might well shudder at our taste........
The market taste changes. This is to be expected. Fads and fashions exist in all human endeavour, and it is no wonder that the marketers exploit this, perhaps cynically, to move product. After all, the people who launch these marketing campaigns are not the same people who design and engineer them.
I know the AEM6000 amp is pretty good, others have commented favourably too, but I would suggest there are other amps that sound good, and possibly even better!
You come out very strongly in favour of zero measured distortion and justify this with purist, engineering notions of correctness (and convention). It is difficult to argue against this, but how do you explain the huge popularity of the SET, with its horrific measured distortion? I don't want to challenge you or be rude about this, but you might ponder that an amp is not just a scientific apparatus but also a musical instrument, and that the two purposes should be complementary......
Congratulations on a nicely made and executed amplifier!
Cheers,
Hugh
PMA said:
No, it's home-brew. Conrad 75x300mm heatsinks for the sides, and sheet steel for the bottom, back, and top.
The bottom and back are shiny, as I've painted them with black 2-pack epoxy paint, which has a fairly high gloss level.
The front was originally going to be milled aluminium, but the cost is a bit prohibitive (too big to do myself). At the moment I'm pondering making a front panel (for this amp and the matching preamp) from a block of myrtle or perhaps redgum.
AKSA said:
Thankyou. It's been quite a lot of fun. I'm already planning the next one. I knocked up some boards for a single-pair 40-50W version of the same amp, and thought I'd do a little (simple) setup for my study, with a passive preamp, with some matching speakers.
I'm thinking a small bass-reflex setup with Vifa P13WH mid-woofers and complementary tweeter might be fun.
This time there's no need to make the amp standard audio-kit width, so putting it in a wooden case that matches the speakers would be cool.
AKSA said:
I agree completely. Clearly I've invested a lot in it, so hence my perceptions are coloured. That's one of the reasons I put so much stake in objective measurement.
AKSA said:
I'm unfamiliar with the SET. I presume that if it has lots of distortion, then it distorts in a way that's pleasing. I guess if people want to listen to coloured music, then that's fine.
I don't see an amp as a musical instrument at all. The goal should be to accurately reproduce the music that the artist recorded, not to interpret it. Of course if the amp is part of an instrument (like my guitar amp) then it's completely different.
Regards,
Suzy
Hi Suzy,
Very nicely done - both the electronics and the mechanicals. Glad you're happy with the results. It's a good example of solid engineering work. BTW, where did you get those SMD metal film resistors?
I am not fully in favor of zero measured distortion but I can say this. I own tube amps and have listened to SET amps considerably. Given the RIGHT source material, they do sound very lovely (I guess I like the distortion like every other SET fan). However, they fall flat when asked to reproduce full symphony orchestra or pop music. So I have both tube and solid state amps and I use them in a 'preferred' way. Pity the vinyl+SET dudes who are so stuck on one thing.
Wish there are more example of projects like this on the forum. Kinda sick of "here's my version of a IC amp" or "hey, this miracle part sounds fantastic".
Very nicely done - both the electronics and the mechanicals. Glad you're happy with the results. It's a good example of solid engineering work. BTW, where did you get those SMD metal film resistors?
I am not fully in favor of zero measured distortion but I can say this. I own tube amps and have listened to SET amps considerably. Given the RIGHT source material, they do sound very lovely (I guess I like the distortion like every other SET fan). However, they fall flat when asked to reproduce full symphony orchestra or pop music. So I have both tube and solid state amps and I use them in a 'preferred' way. Pity the vinyl+SET dudes who are so stuck on one thing.
Wish there are more example of projects like this on the forum. Kinda sick of "here's my version of a IC amp" or "hey, this miracle part sounds fantastic".
Miss Jackson,
Can't wait to see your next project finished, the pic looks like you are going to enjoy your creation for a very long time.
Members like you and Miss Susan Parker sure make this club shine.
I advise a napkin for your next listening session.
Can't wait to see your next project finished, the pic looks like you are going to enjoy your creation for a very long time.
Members like you and Miss Susan Parker sure make this club shine.
I advise a napkin for your next listening session.
aem 6000
Congratulations, Suzy. It looks very neat.
I also like amps, which are as faithful reproducers of input signals as possible. The only problem here is that coloration is unavoidable due to technological limitations as well as pure phisics so in the end we are forced to choose between certain kinds of coloration.
Before coming to Australia we (with a few friends, electronic engineers with master degrees specializing in audio design) did a lot of tests with musicians trying to design as "faithful" (we took hi-fi seriously then) system as possible with components available back then. These tests revealed a number of interesting things about working of human brains and subjectivity of hearing with emotional attitudes playing a significant role.
On the electronic side the most important were speakers with midrange being the most sensitive part, which is not surprising due to our hearing characteristics. The system had to be active, passives were out of chance due to factors previously mentioned here, and bass should work in a feedback loop.
The impact of PAs, sonically, was much less important. Of course I'm talkin about good amps with best B class amps - fast wideband, low crossover and intermodulation distortion - coming before A class, which was a surprise. I'm talking about normal and higher listenning levels when our hearing is more linear. At low levels most of these amps were working in class A anyway.
cheers,
Congratulations, Suzy. It looks very neat.
I also like amps, which are as faithful reproducers of input signals as possible. The only problem here is that coloration is unavoidable due to technological limitations as well as pure phisics so in the end we are forced to choose between certain kinds of coloration.
Before coming to Australia we (with a few friends, electronic engineers with master degrees specializing in audio design) did a lot of tests with musicians trying to design as "faithful" (we took hi-fi seriously then) system as possible with components available back then. These tests revealed a number of interesting things about working of human brains and subjectivity of hearing with emotional attitudes playing a significant role.
On the electronic side the most important were speakers with midrange being the most sensitive part, which is not surprising due to our hearing characteristics. The system had to be active, passives were out of chance due to factors previously mentioned here, and bass should work in a feedback loop.
The impact of PAs, sonically, was much less important. Of course I'm talkin about good amps with best B class amps - fast wideband, low crossover and intermodulation distortion - coming before A class, which was a surprise. I'm talking about normal and higher listenning levels when our hearing is more linear. At low levels most of these amps were working in class A anyway.
cheers,
Hi Suzy,
I downloaded your .asc file from your web site and was wondering if you had the semi models handy for LTspice,
or did I miss them on your site somewhere?
Pete B.
I downloaded your .asc file from your web site and was wondering if you had the semi models handy for LTspice,
or did I miss them on your site somewhere?
Pete B.
PB2 said:
Thanks for noticing. I've bunged my
standard.bjt , standard.jft , and standard.mos files up, and put links to them from my poweramp page.
Just copy them to your LTspice library directory (back up your old ones first!) and it should all work nicely.
Cheers,
Suzy
Thanks!
Seems some permissions have to be set. Getting this when I try to download the files:
"You don't have permission to access /poweramp/standard.bjt on this server."
Seems some permissions have to be set. Getting this when I try to download the files:
"You don't have permission to access /poweramp/standard.bjt on this server."
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