Does it still work?
If that storage time once opened is a big deal I am sure there are ways to reseal it for later also it is not big deal to me right now.
The polyurethane stuff looks interesting as well, and, going through their website you can get whatever it is they put in all of their special mixes and such to make it conductive in 1gal. jugs, Not cheap but you can get it, I have read about some mixture ratio's with the concentrate but no real recipes yet, but it looks very interesting to play with some time at about $200 for 1qt. bottle,
https://www.eis-inc.com/staticide-concentrate/p-acl3000q
I have a whole lot of more stuff to coat anyhow, I need to coat my whole desk if I start getting into HV experiments again, it is hard enough when I can feel the HV Creep along the surface of it at times, A pulse from a drawn arc from my supply comes up the ground side from the surface of everything through the case and locks it up every time, never fails, therefore when I do HV all my MCU stuff has to go away for awhile, So Ya, I am looking more into some of the newer products these days as well.
Not to mention needing the large amounts to cover a large surface area times however many of Stacked Diaphragms with Direct Drive bass system, that I dreamt up some years ago.
So I am Thinking Cheap, Durability will come later.
Nothing wrong with Licron it is all I have ever used and I am kinda looking for some bulk something with out breaking the bank and Man I tell ya they really closed the gap on cost effectiveness for the most part !!
Staticide used to be nearly 1/2 to 3/4 or so the cost of Chemspray stuff, but now they are pretty much the same and it doesn't make much of any difference as to wish product you get these days.
I will get and always have Licron on hand just gotta get some, but I really want to take a good look at a few ACL versions as well it might actually work out for some of the goofy ideas I have going on right now, related too, but not just ESL's.
I also got a can of that FlexSeal Clear in Spray Can stuff, It will be interesting, gonna spray a set of tines with it and if it coats nicely it should make for a Beautiful Nice and Shiny Rubber Coated Copper TIG Stator !!
Cheers !!
jer
If that storage time once opened is a big deal I am sure there are ways to reseal it for later also it is not big deal to me right now.
The polyurethane stuff looks interesting as well, and, going through their website you can get whatever it is they put in all of their special mixes and such to make it conductive in 1gal. jugs, Not cheap but you can get it, I have read about some mixture ratio's with the concentrate but no real recipes yet, but it looks very interesting to play with some time at about $200 for 1qt. bottle,
https://www.eis-inc.com/staticide-concentrate/p-acl3000q
I have a whole lot of more stuff to coat anyhow, I need to coat my whole desk if I start getting into HV experiments again, it is hard enough when I can feel the HV Creep along the surface of it at times, A pulse from a drawn arc from my supply comes up the ground side from the surface of everything through the case and locks it up every time, never fails, therefore when I do HV all my MCU stuff has to go away for awhile, So Ya, I am looking more into some of the newer products these days as well.
Not to mention needing the large amounts to cover a large surface area times however many of Stacked Diaphragms with Direct Drive bass system, that I dreamt up some years ago.
So I am Thinking Cheap, Durability will come later.
Nothing wrong with Licron it is all I have ever used and I am kinda looking for some bulk something with out breaking the bank and Man I tell ya they really closed the gap on cost effectiveness for the most part !!
Staticide used to be nearly 1/2 to 3/4 or so the cost of Chemspray stuff, but now they are pretty much the same and it doesn't make much of any difference as to wish product you get these days.
I will get and always have Licron on hand just gotta get some, but I really want to take a good look at a few ACL versions as well it might actually work out for some of the goofy ideas I have going on right now, related too, but not just ESL's.
I also got a can of that FlexSeal Clear in Spray Can stuff, It will be interesting, gonna spray a set of tines with it and if it coats nicely it should make for a Beautiful Nice and Shiny Rubber Coated Copper TIG Stator !!
Cheers !!
jer
I have no issues measuring it if I need too, learned all of that basic stuff a long long time ago, I did not forget !!!!
Not after all of the pain I went through learning to do so !!!!
how can test the stator insulation and mylar coating?
I found it Local for $130, I will get a hold of them soon and get one.
ACL Staticide 6300Q ESD / Anti-Static Coating | RSHughes.com
I wonder if a gallon of any of that $30gal. stuff would work?
Anyhow, Thanks Guys for all of the help this will get me up and running for sure, the vender I had for Licron was local as well and sold it to me for $26 a can while everyone else had to pay $40-$50 and shipping if you could get it shipped, but that was back in 2006 (he,he,he!).
As far as I knew they were still around in 2010-12 only if I could run across that old receipt again !!
jer
Not after all of the pain I went through learning to do so !!!!
how can test the stator insulation and mylar coating?
I found it Local for $130, I will get a hold of them soon and get one.
ACL Staticide 6300Q ESD / Anti-Static Coating | RSHughes.com
I wonder if a gallon of any of that $30gal. stuff would work?
Anyhow, Thanks Guys for all of the help this will get me up and running for sure, the vender I had for Licron was local as well and sold it to me for $26 a can while everyone else had to pay $40-$50 and shipping if you could get it shipped, but that was back in 2006 (he,he,he!).
As far as I knew they were still around in 2010-12 only if I could run across that old receipt again !!
jer
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Reading the interview with Ross I see that he is not 100% honest, or the author has done some mistakes. I guess he is more of a sales man than an engineer. Bragging a lot. His father is much more humble and honest. There is several statements from Ross (only focusing on 63s..: ?/- 2uM between mylar and stator, should be 2.5um. The Author says 20kV is putting him off. I would say 5.25 kV for the bias voltage and less for the stator. "Secret ingredient X is used as a damping layer on the Mylar"? Baxandall never mention this, but the fine mesh, the ratio of the panel size, resonace freq, electrical impedance matching etc is clear, but "damping layer? Maybe he talks about the coating properties and that they coat 2 times with a binder first and then the dissipative part later? ( i have seen this on some panels, a milky coating a couple of cm wide and then closer to center the graphite mix). I+m 99% sure the white part is Poly vinyl acetate. I can double check that... Ross says that they have a surface resistance of 10^11 which is true for ESL but not for 63s and i have measured down to 10^6 so between 10^6 to 10^8. Which tells me tat their process is far from stable. The resonance frequency of panels is far from consistent as well, both factors is important to keep the sensitivity of the speaker right. So 0,5 dB is simply not true. I agree that at that time they could be better than dynamical speakers (not all). Ross is mentioning 10kV on the panels (115 in turn ratio) 10000/115 = 87V which is well above 100w (closer to 1000w) And i know that you can not play more that 50w...
Yeah, there certainly is some “looseness” in a few of the quoted figures (ie 2mm vs 2.5mm).
Regarding the 10000V mentioned:
Brochures for the ESL63 and descendants specify peak allowable input voltage of 40V. I measured the total step-up ratio as 244:1, so 9.8kV stator to stator. This figure also agrees with the threshold for the earlier primary side limiters which were set at 40Vpk. Later secondary side Zener string limiters have a threshold closer to 7kV though.
(equivalent to about 30Vpk on the primary side)
Regarding the secret ingredient X damping layer:
I believe this is the clear rubbery stretchy coating applied to the diaphragm side opposite the conductive coating.
Originally posted here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...es-not-look-like-3-micron.263952/post-4126172
Regarding the 10000V mentioned:
Brochures for the ESL63 and descendants specify peak allowable input voltage of 40V. I measured the total step-up ratio as 244:1, so 9.8kV stator to stator. This figure also agrees with the threshold for the earlier primary side limiters which were set at 40Vpk. Later secondary side Zener string limiters have a threshold closer to 7kV though.
(equivalent to about 30Vpk on the primary side)Regarding the secret ingredient X damping layer:
I believe this is the clear rubbery stretchy coating applied to the diaphragm side opposite the conductive coating.
Originally posted here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...es-not-look-like-3-micron.263952/post-4126172
With total step up you mean 2x122, 122 on each transformer. Do you know which serial number it had?
I have measured 1:118.
Maybe there has been changes between serial numbers? Worth checking out... I got 9 pairs.
And you don´t touch both panels at ones do you? ;-)
So i agree, between two plates the difference will be the double voltage of what i said.
But most likely if someone is unlucky and put a metal needle trough the cloth while playing close to clipping... then you could get fried by 4.9kV
However 1kV is lethal!
In my Beveridge 2SW2 the power supply with charged capacitors with low ESR there is +/- 3200 volts! Working on those I had rubber gloves and used only ONE HAND, and i had rubber sandals. I also made a discharge resistor ladder with an volt meter. I have found a way to use this OTL amp on ESL 63. I will try one day. BUT HEY! In my town there is no fools like you guys in Sweden! Soo boring. Netherlands seems to be much better! Small by size but many DIY Audio members.
I have measured 1:118.
Maybe there has been changes between serial numbers? Worth checking out... I got 9 pairs.
And you don´t touch both panels at ones do you? ;-)
So i agree, between two plates the difference will be the double voltage of what i said.
But most likely if someone is unlucky and put a metal needle trough the cloth while playing close to clipping... then you could get fried by 4.9kV
However 1kV is lethal!
In my Beveridge 2SW2 the power supply with charged capacitors with low ESR there is +/- 3200 volts! Working on those I had rubber gloves and used only ONE HAND, and i had rubber sandals. I also made a discharge resistor ladder with an volt meter. I have found a way to use this OTL amp on ESL 63. I will try one day. BUT HEY! In my town there is no fools like you guys in Sweden! Soo boring. Netherlands seems to be much better! Small by size but many DIY Audio members.
Regarding the 3 layer coating 10um in total? Is this an imperial thingy?
Metric i have never measured more than 3um+3um on ESL63
I have to rip one old panel tomorrow and have a check. I will se if I can take a 989 panel.
Usually i fold maybe 4 or 8 layers and use an micrometer to get a more accurate number.
Is this from the 2812 2912? Those i have never repaired... yet.
Metric i have never measured more than 3um+3um on ESL63
I have to rip one old panel tomorrow and have a check. I will se if I can take a 989 panel.
Usually i fold maybe 4 or 8 layers and use an micrometer to get a more accurate number.
Is this from the 2812 2912? Those i have never repaired... yet.
I don't recall the serial numbers and they aren't visible in any of the pictures I kept. My recollection is they were built in 1983-84 time frame.
Yes, 1:122 for each transformer with 48 turn primaries. Another diyAudio member determined 1:120 with 49 turn primaries.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/esl-diaphragm-coating.109789/post-2087172
Yes, the total thickness I measured for the 3 layers averaged about 11μm. (1μm = 1 micrometer = 1e-6 meters, or 1 micron)
The idea that the clear coating was applied to damp the natural crinkliness of polyester film seems plausible.
Shaking about 2 similarly sized pieces of the film(one with the damping layer removed) the piece with the damping layer was noticeably quieter.
But, does this translate into a useful sonic improvement when stretched? I couldn't hear one or measure an differences in CSD with a small test panel.
It would be interesting to learn what range of ESL-63 Serial numbers used this coating and if any of the later generations(988/2805/2812) did as well.
Yes, 1:122 for each transformer with 48 turn primaries. Another diyAudio member determined 1:120 with 49 turn primaries.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/esl-diaphragm-coating.109789/post-2087172
Yes, the total thickness I measured for the 3 layers averaged about 11μm. (1μm = 1 micrometer = 1e-6 meters, or 1 micron)
The idea that the clear coating was applied to damp the natural crinkliness of polyester film seems plausible.
Shaking about 2 similarly sized pieces of the film(one with the damping layer removed) the piece with the damping layer was noticeably quieter.
But, does this translate into a useful sonic improvement when stretched? I couldn't hear one or measure an differences in CSD with a small test panel.
It would be interesting to learn what range of ESL-63 Serial numbers used this coating and if any of the later generations(988/2805/2812) did as well.
Pretty sure my 2912's had that coating. I can't be 100% sure since I was in rebuild mode, not archeologist mode. And I was way more interested in why the diaphragms were splitting and falling apart.
And the quad diaphragms are in the 3.5um range, and as far as I can tell always have been.
And the quad diaphragms are in the 3.5um range, and as far as I can tell always have been.
My SN 023809 and SN 023810 Quad63 have the X-coating. This coating feels and mechanically behaves much like a PE-type food wrapping foil. I do not say by that, that I think it is PE! I only want to point to the fact that this layer is very well done and also rubust in terms of tension which can be applied onto it, once selectively stripped off. I would very much like to know what X really consists of.
Here you can clearly see the "shoreline" of this X-coating. X is on the back, conductive coating on the top:
And here the way you can strip it off quite uniformely:
A close-up of the stripped corner. Left top quarter of the picture shows the remaining mylar with the conductive coating on the back side, top right the stripped off X-layer:
And now for some creative work - First draw circles on the conductive layer side, Lines on the mystery X layer side ...
... then melting a contour onto the X-layer it at some 215...225°C (below melting temp of the mylar), you can then selectively strip this X-coating off ...
... thus getting straight to the hearth of the X secret:
Et voilà !!!
Here you can clearly see the "shoreline" of this X-coating. X is on the back, conductive coating on the top:
And here the way you can strip it off quite uniformely:
A close-up of the stripped corner. Left top quarter of the picture shows the remaining mylar with the conductive coating on the back side, top right the stripped off X-layer:
And now for some creative work - First draw circles on the conductive layer side, Lines on the mystery X layer side ...
... then melting a contour onto the X-layer it at some 215...225°C (below melting temp of the mylar), you can then selectively strip this X-coating off ...
... thus getting straight to the hearth of the X secret:
Et voilà !!!
X-coating for damping? It's making the diaphragm thicker and heavier. My thoughts would be there are only losers, no winners here.
Thicker means stronger roll-off in the highs and a worse pulse response. Just my thoughts
A picture of a very early black panels with the original Mylar and coating. Also multiple layers. No X-layer though.
Thicker means stronger roll-off in the highs and a worse pulse response. Just my thoughts
A picture of a very early black panels with the original Mylar and coating. Also multiple layers. No X-layer though.
Your foto is the the proof that the damping coating (aka "X-layer") was applied also onto the early, black-matrix'ed Quad63.
Your original foto is quite flawed (lighting, sharpness, contrast), but you can see the "shoreline" and the slight blurring effect of the damping coating despite it's optical imperfection. To make it more evident, I scaled your foto twice, sharpened it and increased the contrast.
That damping coating is indeed present on the early black panels I've seen. It often turns milky on those old black panels (as you see in the photos above). But doesn't on the newer ones. It could be age or that they changed the formulation slightly. No idea what they were trying to accomplish with it, but it does seem like the negatives of it would outweigh the positives.
Your measurements seem correct as far as my experience with surface resistivity. I use a smaller square (about 2" x 2") and I get 10^7 range ohms per square.
Sheldon
Your measurements seem correct as far as my experience with surface resistivity. I use a smaller square (about 2" x 2") and I get 10^7 range ohms per square.
Sheldon
Nice measurements and nice gear!
Your thickness measurement fits perfectly to what Bolserst stated above: 3um Mylar + 3um conductive coating + 4...6um X-damping coating.
And as for the SR measurements, also I got a SR of approx. 50Mohm square on an original Quad63 diaphragm coating (which by Forum's standards seems a bit on the conductive side, a higher SR might be better). Measured with a neat little DIY-diaphragm-glider, and along with a simple Multimeter which ranges up to 2GOhm.
I am currently reworking my Quad63 and have coated the diaphragms with the standard tools and method, and the coating fluid provided by ERaudio (eraudio.com.au). It works very well, and my 3rd diaphragm showed a very neat result after a slight rework. To be sure that I had coated homogeniously all over the surface, I made a 2cm x 2cm probe. So that for each "case" of the diaphragm supporter matrix, I mapped two measurements. The results are approximate and can change by roughly +-25% depending on the pressure on the probe, but hopefully precise enough. And all measurements show a beautiful SR in or very close to the optimum range. I am sure that a next series might show even better homogenity, because I improved my technique from panel to panel.
So, the SR mapping on a Quad63 (coating fluid from ERaudio):
And the 2cm x 2cm probe (shown on a stator to illustrate the half-box-size):
Your thickness measurement fits perfectly to what Bolserst stated above: 3um Mylar + 3um conductive coating + 4...6um X-damping coating.
And as for the SR measurements, also I got a SR of approx. 50Mohm square on an original Quad63 diaphragm coating (which by Forum's standards seems a bit on the conductive side, a higher SR might be better). Measured with a neat little DIY-diaphragm-glider, and along with a simple Multimeter which ranges up to 2GOhm.
I am currently reworking my Quad63 and have coated the diaphragms with the standard tools and method, and the coating fluid provided by ERaudio (eraudio.com.au). It works very well, and my 3rd diaphragm showed a very neat result after a slight rework. To be sure that I had coated homogeniously all over the surface, I made a 2cm x 2cm probe. So that for each "case" of the diaphragm supporter matrix, I mapped two measurements. The results are approximate and can change by roughly +-25% depending on the pressure on the probe, but hopefully precise enough. And all measurements show a beautiful SR in or very close to the optimum range. I am sure that a next series might show even better homogenity, because I improved my technique from panel to panel.
So, the SR mapping on a Quad63 (coating fluid from ERaudio):
And the 2cm x 2cm probe (shown on a stator to illustrate the half-box-size):
When you apply coating I recommend to do extra coating where the bias voltage is applied. I have also tried another coating with much lower resistivity on the long edges and a extra cm in towards the membrane so approx 2cm or one inch wide conductive layer.
Since the movement of the membrane is almost zero that close to the edge there is no charge migration. The reason why is that even if you are on the high side of the resistivity in some parts, you will get a more even charge. The other reason is that you will get less sparks between the aluminum strip and membrane during charge up. That means less ozone, and this will prolong the life. But be avare to keep the edges absolutely clean after coating process. So an extra cleaning is worth while. When you test a panel in humid environment and look on the bulbs flashing frequency, if you reach on blink in four five minutes you are OK. If one panel is discharging faster than two minutes i would try to fix/clean the leakage path or paths. When you make the holes (3) you must remove the burrs. And again keep the panels clean, and stay away from coat the corners. Try to mimic the originals, thats a good start before you experimenting... ;-)
Since the movement of the membrane is almost zero that close to the edge there is no charge migration. The reason why is that even if you are on the high side of the resistivity in some parts, you will get a more even charge. The other reason is that you will get less sparks between the aluminum strip and membrane during charge up. That means less ozone, and this will prolong the life. But be avare to keep the edges absolutely clean after coating process. So an extra cleaning is worth while. When you test a panel in humid environment and look on the bulbs flashing frequency, if you reach on blink in four five minutes you are OK. If one panel is discharging faster than two minutes i would try to fix/clean the leakage path or paths. When you make the holes (3) you must remove the burrs. And again keep the panels clean, and stay away from coat the corners. Try to mimic the originals, thats a good start before you experimenting... ;-)
Greeting from Costa Rica!
I know it is an old post, but I just wanted to thank you for the suggestion of using F21 as coating. It is no longer available, but there is a new one called "inside & out protectant that works just as well as you described F21.
I remember that having read on this forum that you mention you have a method to split the Martin Logan panels without damaging the diafragm. If you don't mind sharing it, that would be really helpful. I've tryed several methods with mixed results.
Hi all, having only just joined up I am still picking my way through the various threads for information, something out of left field or maybe not if it has already been discussed. I wonder if anyone has tried antistatic solution sold for clothing/shoes and even for spraying on a dogs coat when grooming. I just bought a 125ml bottle for around $7 AUS.
It works, but usually not for long. The challenge with coatings is to obtain long term stability and good adhesion. As well as the correct surface resistance.
So your bottle is fine for experiments but for a final build I would use a proven solution, such as the ER Audio coating.
So your bottle is fine for experiments but for a final build I would use a proven solution, such as the ER Audio coating.