Bud,
Thank you for the words and help! I'm actually off into town now so will look for 2 way glue or at least some alternative that does the same task. If I use an alternative I'll just be hoping it works a similar magic on my speaker cones.
I will do the PVA glue dot (I have some) and microgloss (I have that too). I was trying to do things in the order specified in your earlier post regarding the Beta 8A mods.
Thanks again.
Simon
Thank you for the words and help! I'm actually off into town now so will look for 2 way glue or at least some alternative that does the same task. If I use an alternative I'll just be hoping it works a similar magic on my speaker cones.
I will do the PVA glue dot (I have some) and microgloss (I have that too). I was trying to do things in the order specified in your earlier post regarding the Beta 8A mods.
Thanks again.
Simon
I'd possibly like to invest in a second pair of those:
Selenium 8W4P 8" Woofer | Parts-Express.com
simply to give it a try.
Would there be sufficient guesstimation from one of you on how to best treat it myself - or, even more preferable for me as I'm short in time - is there a chance that one of you could sell me a treated pair at reasonable cost ?
As far as I have seen there is four of you Bud, Ed, George and Dave but all of you are out of EU - so what would you recommend?
If of any help, I can provide close up pix form the pair I already have and intend to keep untreated to have a reference.
Michael
Selenium 8W4P 8" Woofer | Parts-Express.com
simply to give it a try.
Would there be sufficient guesstimation from one of you on how to best treat it myself - or, even more preferable for me as I'm short in time - is there a chance that one of you could sell me a treated pair at reasonable cost ?
As far as I have seen there is four of you Bud, Ed, George and Dave but all of you are out of EU - so what would you recommend?
If of any help, I can provide close up pix form the pair I already have and intend to keep untreated to have a reference.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
I suspect you will want me to do the application. We have rolled all of the experiments and what testing has been done into EnABL 2. Since I am lead on this I do have the experience to tackle the Selenium drivers.
I am willing to trade my work for yours. Yours being as complete a test of the treated drivers as you can manage with your other diversions. I cannot believe you are not already planning this, I would just like access to the data.
Do you want to purchase them and have them shipped to me? Probable shipping into the EU will be $120 from my location in the Pacific NW / Seattle area.
Bud
I suspect you will want me to do the application. We have rolled all of the experiments and what testing has been done into EnABL 2. Since I am lead on this I do have the experience to tackle the Selenium drivers.
I am willing to trade my work for yours. Yours being as complete a test of the treated drivers as you can manage with your other diversions. I cannot believe you are not already planning this, I would just like access to the data.
Do you want to purchase them and have them shipped to me? Probable shipping into the EU will be $120 from my location in the Pacific NW / Seattle area.
Bud
Sure I will try to measure any difference I can capture 😀
So a appreciate this as a generous offer of yours !
Send you a PM
Michael
So a appreciate this as a generous offer of yours !
Send you a PM
Michael
Yes Simon, the very thing!!!!!
Just press the fibrous end onto a plastic or ceramic surface until Blue Goo bubbles out in a puddle. Then, taking trusty brush in hand, hopefully a flat one about 13 mm wide, slather the stuff on to the cone in a fairly even brush pattern, making concentric rings to fill in the area involved between backside cone ring and basket. And do remember the surround. Two coats, with drying in between to a clear stickiness, should be enough. Then listen and decide if you want more jump from the things. If not, then cut the Gloss coat to 10% by volume.
Just press the fibrous end onto a plastic or ceramic surface until Blue Goo bubbles out in a puddle. Then, taking trusty brush in hand, hopefully a flat one about 13 mm wide, slather the stuff on to the cone in a fairly even brush pattern, making concentric rings to fill in the area involved between backside cone ring and basket. And do remember the surround. Two coats, with drying in between to a clear stickiness, should be enough. Then listen and decide if you want more jump from the things. If not, then cut the Gloss coat to 10% by volume.
Excellent, you pre-empted one of my next questions there!
So it looks like the area between surround (and including surround and rear pattern ring is to be treated.. I'll get this done today 🙂
So it looks like the area between surround (and including surround and rear pattern ring is to be treated.. I'll get this done today 🙂
You might not miss THAT much
😉
Though its a lot of fun to join the never ending battle about technical explanations, conclusions, hypotheses..., measuring speakers easily gets frustrating if you aim after correlating your impression with what your charts tell.
Michael
Well I never did get the extra coatings done and I then went away for over a week. I came back last night and the speakers sounded good but now today they sound incredible. The problems are still there but the music is so immensely profound in the way it pours and slams out of the speakers. The midrange is better projected than I'm accustomed to from these speakers. It's weird how we have these ups and downs in our perception of audio, and it's so confusing when we start trying to talk about audible "break-in" of components with the natural fluctuation in mind.
That said it did make me wonder if my drivers, solder joins (etc.!!) and EnABL (?!?!?!) are "breaking in" or "burning-in".......
I'll be getting the Beta 8A treatments done soon and will comment on what I find. I'll also take more crude measurements and post those in my thread about these speakers (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/136943-3-way-open-baffle-eminence-skytronic.html).
Simon
That said it did make me wonder if my drivers, solder joins (etc.!!) and EnABL (?!?!?!) are "breaking in" or "burning-in".......
I'll be getting the Beta 8A treatments done soon and will comment on what I find. I'll also take more crude measurements and post those in my thread about these speakers (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/136943-3-way-open-baffle-eminence-skytronic.html).
Simon
Personal appreciation of music is nearly impossible for me if I am buzzed from traveling, not sleeping, playing WOW, or talking to smart friends. Next day is always better.
Now that the mids have exploded into your room, you really must EnABL the woofers. They will OWN your home. Bass will slip through all walls and the front load will literally be your house. It will also provide the same clarity to bass violas, large drums, organ pipes, cannon and other oppressively large and dangerous sounds. And then the tweeter.....
Now that the mids have exploded into your room, you really must EnABL the woofers. They will OWN your home. Bass will slip through all walls and the front load will literally be your house. It will also provide the same clarity to bass violas, large drums, organ pipes, cannon and other oppressively large and dangerous sounds. And then the tweeter.....
So true! I guess it's all to do with cortisol and dopamine and such things.
As for EnABLing the woofers, well there are 2 per side and they're 12" so it might be annoying. They're also plastic and I don't know if their audible shortcomings could really be addressed. I recall you once suggested a light sanding and coating of diluted PVA glue on plastic cones so perhaps I'll give that a try, as well as an outside-edge pattern ring.
My tweeters are compression drivers in wooden waveguides, not sure if EnABL can help me there..... or maybe it can - throat area or mouth are, those tricky transitions where the waveguide design is so critical.
But annoying is good for the soul....or some pile anyway.
Take the small tip end of the long wooden pen tip holder and tap in a radial line up the cone of the woofer. Everywhere you here a change, either in timbre or seeming direction of the decay from the tap, you could place a pattern ring set. Removing all of these locations will remove an amazing amount of rumble you have learned to accept. The end result will be bass transients with the speed and coherent dynamics of the Beta 8 and horn tweeter and Bass as you now know it will disappear but the music and other sounds will have a fundamental floor to arise from that is completely coherent top to bottom.
As for sanding, well, yes, with the slippy plastics anyway. The acrylic paint will attach to almost any surface and stay put but with the polyprop cones sanding helps a very great deal.
Take the small tip end of the long wooden pen tip holder and tap in a radial line up the cone of the woofer. Everywhere you here a change, either in timbre or seeming direction of the decay from the tap, you could place a pattern ring set. Removing all of these locations will remove an amazing amount of rumble you have learned to accept. The end result will be bass transients with the speed and coherent dynamics of the Beta 8 and horn tweeter and Bass as you now know it will disappear but the music and other sounds will have a fundamental floor to arise from that is completely coherent top to bottom.
As for sanding, well, yes, with the slippy plastics anyway. The acrylic paint will attach to almost any surface and stay put but with the polyprop cones sanding helps a very great deal.
Oh no, now I'm getting too excited to sleep! More treatments! Seriously, I love it far too much for my own sanity, friends accuse me of having OCD 😱
I went away to France for a week so never got round to any comments on these Beta 8A treatments.
The simple thing to say is "it works". With the 2-way glue, PVA dot and microgloss treatments (as well as EnABL) I now don't hear a character in the Beta 8A performance, just a very pleasant, smooth, natural midrange. I may raise the crossover point even higher now as the mids are so smooth and the overall sound has become just a little too relaxed.
One thing I've noticed with these speakers now is how subtle layers in a performance are simply present in a very unfussy way. Some of these sounds were not noticed previously, they were quite probably obscured by peaky resonant-type effects.
More tweaking is perhaps needed on my crossovers but these cone treatments have advanced things from "it sounds good in some ways" to "it sounds like whatever I play with no added edge or false colour". Thanks for the pointers Bud!!!
Simon
The simple thing to say is "it works". With the 2-way glue, PVA dot and microgloss treatments (as well as EnABL) I now don't hear a character in the Beta 8A performance, just a very pleasant, smooth, natural midrange. I may raise the crossover point even higher now as the mids are so smooth and the overall sound has become just a little too relaxed.
One thing I've noticed with these speakers now is how subtle layers in a performance are simply present in a very unfussy way. Some of these sounds were not noticed previously, they were quite probably obscured by peaky resonant-type effects.
More tweaking is perhaps needed on my crossovers but these cone treatments have advanced things from "it sounds good in some ways" to "it sounds like whatever I play with no added edge or false colour". Thanks for the pointers Bud!!!
Simon
G'day Simon,
Glad to hear you're enjoying the results! 🙂
Have you EnABL'ed the 12" woofers?
You should EnABL these before tweaking the crossovers. It may seem a daunting task, but the results are profound. Bass will gain texture, depth and a naturalness that is difficult to describe in words.
Cheers,
Alex
Glad to hear you're enjoying the results! 🙂
Have you EnABL'ed the 12" woofers?
You should EnABL these before tweaking the crossovers. It may seem a daunting task, but the results are profound. Bass will gain texture, depth and a naturalness that is difficult to describe in words.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Alex,
No, I've not yet EnABL'd the woofers, though it is on the to-do list! I'm also wondering if it can improve my waveguide-loaded tweeters...
Simon
No, I've not yet EnABL'd the woofers, though it is on the to-do list! I'm also wondering if it can improve my waveguide-loaded tweeters...
Simon
G'day Simon,
For starters, I would put a pattern about half a block width in from the outside edge and another on the inside edge near the driver (see pic).
Next, do a tap test on the waveguide the same way you would do on a cone. You'll need to do this late at night when things are very quiet.
If you hear a slight change in the sound of the taps this will indicate where you will need to apply another pattern ring. If you don't hear any changes, then don't worry about it.
Lastly, I would also apply a light coat of diluted microgloss (50%) inside the waveguide itself.
Cheers,
Alex
For starters, I would put a pattern about half a block width in from the outside edge and another on the inside edge near the driver (see pic).
Next, do a tap test on the waveguide the same way you would do on a cone. You'll need to do this late at night when things are very quiet.
If you hear a slight change in the sound of the taps this will indicate where you will need to apply another pattern ring. If you don't hear any changes, then don't worry about it.
Lastly, I would also apply a light coat of diluted microgloss (50%) inside the waveguide itself.
Cheers,
Alex
Attachments
After carefully looking over the pics, I see you have cleverly forestalled most loop back mechanisms, with the stepped nature of the horn surface. Assuming that stepped speaker cones and stepped horn surfaces have some sort of common relationship, there will not be a reason to apply the patterns on every single ledge involved..... as much as it delights me to think about convincing you to do this....
On cones that have sine wave like "rumples" to their surface, a pattern at beginning and end suffices. You do have a large step mid way up the horn flare and this might be a place to pattern also. So, a max of three rings. I would place the outer ring as shown on the pic, using clear 3 mil thick plastic kitchen shelf paper. The stuff with peel-able adhesive is recommended. Just determine the size needed and cut up the blocks to match the size and stick them on. This is likely to be all that is needed to disperse the loop back that disturbs smooth propagation from the wave guide edges to flat surface. Going to be a subtle improvement in integration, that shows up mostly as perceived spatial location improvements.
I agree with your comments on the three way thread, about the gloss and glue being the primary tamers of the Beta 8 drivers. The EnABL just provides the extra 50 or so db of downward dynamic coherence, that is insulting you with such an information rich replay.
Bud
On cones that have sine wave like "rumples" to their surface, a pattern at beginning and end suffices. You do have a large step mid way up the horn flare and this might be a place to pattern also. So, a max of three rings. I would place the outer ring as shown on the pic, using clear 3 mil thick plastic kitchen shelf paper. The stuff with peel-able adhesive is recommended. Just determine the size needed and cut up the blocks to match the size and stick them on. This is likely to be all that is needed to disperse the loop back that disturbs smooth propagation from the wave guide edges to flat surface. Going to be a subtle improvement in integration, that shows up mostly as perceived spatial location improvements.
I agree with your comments on the three way thread, about the gloss and glue being the primary tamers of the Beta 8 drivers. The EnABL just provides the extra 50 or so db of downward dynamic coherence, that is insulting you with such an information rich replay.
Bud
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