Well, I did the old hot glue on a toothpick to pull out the last little dent in the dust cap and it worked like a charm. Probably due to the 2 coats of ModPodge on there already. Anyways, I pulled the dent, peeled any hot glue residue and gave the cap a quick coat of ModPodge.
I'm pretty anal about aesthetics and I think that most would be hard-pressed to notice that there was a dent there.
At least this little mishap has enlightened me to how little pressure to put on the driver as I put the EnAble pattern down.
I'm pretty anal about aesthetics and I think that most would be hard-pressed to notice that there was a dent there.
At least this little mishap has enlightened me to how little pressure to put on the driver as I put the EnAble pattern down.
cjkpkg,
I have never used hot glue but it seems like a worthwhile thing to know.
Glad you had good success.
I have never used hot glue but it seems like a worthwhile thing to know.
Glad you had good success.
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Joined 2009
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The Jury is back on Tri-foil
Well, having lived with my speakers for awhile since completing the Tri-foil pattern I can say that whilst it's an improvement, it isn't enough. The 7kHz cone break up / baffle step losses still make for a speaker that is not easy to listen to.
It's not an issue of SS amp fatigue since I can happily listen through a pair of vintage Fonovox speakers or my PMC FB1s. [Note - my room is quite 'alive' lots of hard surfaces].
I am going to consider BSC, although this is now OT for this thread I thought worth reporting back on my progress re: Tri=foil.
Well, having lived with my speakers for awhile since completing the Tri-foil pattern I can say that whilst it's an improvement, it isn't enough. The 7kHz cone break up / baffle step losses still make for a speaker that is not easy to listen to.
It's not an issue of SS amp fatigue since I can happily listen through a pair of vintage Fonovox speakers or my PMC FB1s. [Note - my room is quite 'alive' lots of hard surfaces].
I am going to consider BSC, although this is now OT for this thread I thought worth reporting back on my progress re: Tri=foil.
Trifoil is only part 1 of a 2 part process, each part of which relies on the other.
dave
Yes, the Fostex 126/7 drivers must have the Trifoil pattern and Puzzlecoat. The EnABL only versions are very very clear and sweet, but thin sounding and are missing the meat of the left hand in a piano and the pressure of an orchestra or choral. Dave's process is mandatory as far as I am concerned, and it does help with the overall balance.
Bud
Bud
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I should clarify, I applied both Tri-foil and puzzle-coat.
The sound was different, it wasn't as lively. Clearly it has tamed the top end a bit, but not enough.
The sound was different, it wasn't as lively. Clearly it has tamed the top end a bit, but not enough.
Finally a report back in here.
Over time I have made the best matched pair of MLTL for the FE127e I can make according to the plans since put up by Jeff at zillaspeak. The design is by GM (Greg Montfort.) I have had this pair for many years-- it was the first build I did all from scratch. To this day they have no elegance being made of particle board but now the stuffing and port length are as close to identical as I can do.
The one FE127e has no modifications. The other is the EnABL job but does not have the trifoil pattern. This was because I damar'ed the cone before I began investigating EnABL. These things have gone on over years and the report is more about EnABL vs stock drivers.
First impression is the same as other tests with mixed cabinets-- the treated driver is not as loud. The treated driver softens the sound and I'm not sure if that is a good thing. Budp has said this effect of EnABL is due to the artifacts which EnABL removes. In this sense of subtraction it is supposedly a new and better way to listen to tunes. If that just remains a supposition or my hearing is at a plane where the sharper sound is better I have yet to decide.
The t-amp I am using seems to be struggling with getting enough volume though that might be just from my digital mp3 samples.
Putting on a nice organ recital should show how big the difference is from my larger FE167e MLTL build.
The Marchand test program showed that I have 85hz as the bottom.
This seems a high limit since previously, the 35Hz tone played at station break by WCPE was audible, now it isnt.
But these are not EnABL issues, just background for understanding what I'm doing.
Over time I have made the best matched pair of MLTL for the FE127e I can make according to the plans since put up by Jeff at zillaspeak. The design is by GM (Greg Montfort.) I have had this pair for many years-- it was the first build I did all from scratch. To this day they have no elegance being made of particle board but now the stuffing and port length are as close to identical as I can do.
The one FE127e has no modifications. The other is the EnABL job but does not have the trifoil pattern. This was because I damar'ed the cone before I began investigating EnABL. These things have gone on over years and the report is more about EnABL vs stock drivers.
First impression is the same as other tests with mixed cabinets-- the treated driver is not as loud. The treated driver softens the sound and I'm not sure if that is a good thing. Budp has said this effect of EnABL is due to the artifacts which EnABL removes. In this sense of subtraction it is supposedly a new and better way to listen to tunes. If that just remains a supposition or my hearing is at a plane where the sharper sound is better I have yet to decide.
The t-amp I am using seems to be struggling with getting enough volume though that might be just from my digital mp3 samples.
Putting on a nice organ recital should show how big the difference is from my larger FE167e MLTL build.
The Marchand test program showed that I have 85hz as the bottom.
This seems a high limit since previously, the 35Hz tone played at station break by WCPE was audible, now it isnt.
But these are not EnABL issues, just background for understanding what I'm doing.
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Interesting findings Lon.
I was at the Pacific NW Audio Society show this last weekend. I provided an A/B comparison between treated and untreated 127 driver sets, in identical Fonken cabinets.
The untreated drivers were really very good. Fine bass, smooth mid range and available, though somewhat simplified high frequencies. The treated driver had a deeper bass response with clearer information content, but not as prominent, the mids had perhaps three to four times more information and the highs were slightly recessed, but much more refined in nature.
It was interesting to watch the various folks encounter this set up, with the Fonkens stacked to eliminate obvious offset in the perceived stereo illusion. Many knew nothing about the process at all. It took them a while to learn how to listen to that much information. Others heard it immediately.
No one said the stock drivers sounded bad. No one complained of the slight bleariness in the mids or the overall lack in detail and completion of sounds. What they did remark upon was how much deeper into the music you could hear and how much more immediate the presentation was.
Alex of Oz has repeatedly remarked upon this one treated and one untreated driver phenomena, that the untreated driver just stands right out in the stereo illusion and that you have to center on one at a time and go back and forth between them to begin to understand what is happening.
For myself, I am so far into this that I must have both drivers treated before I am satisfied with a presentation, or both untreated. I cannot abide one of each all at once.
Bud
I was at the Pacific NW Audio Society show this last weekend. I provided an A/B comparison between treated and untreated 127 driver sets, in identical Fonken cabinets.
The untreated drivers were really very good. Fine bass, smooth mid range and available, though somewhat simplified high frequencies. The treated driver had a deeper bass response with clearer information content, but not as prominent, the mids had perhaps three to four times more information and the highs were slightly recessed, but much more refined in nature.
It was interesting to watch the various folks encounter this set up, with the Fonkens stacked to eliminate obvious offset in the perceived stereo illusion. Many knew nothing about the process at all. It took them a while to learn how to listen to that much information. Others heard it immediately.
No one said the stock drivers sounded bad. No one complained of the slight bleariness in the mids or the overall lack in detail and completion of sounds. What they did remark upon was how much deeper into the music you could hear and how much more immediate the presentation was.
Alex of Oz has repeatedly remarked upon this one treated and one untreated driver phenomena, that the untreated driver just stands right out in the stereo illusion and that you have to center on one at a time and go back and forth between them to begin to understand what is happening.
For myself, I am so far into this that I must have both drivers treated before I am satisfied with a presentation, or both untreated. I cannot abide one of each all at once.
Bud
Today, lacking a good balance control and just to overcome the forwardness of the untreated side, I physically moved the two so that the untreated is further back.
That should give a compensation effect. My listening setup is not ideal.
Elsewhere, good results from one of the Pioneer cheapies that is in a smaller
shelf size box. I have this one near field monitor style and the guitar sounds very accurate.
That should give a compensation effect. My listening setup is not ideal.
Elsewhere, good results from one of the Pioneer cheapies that is in a smaller
shelf size box. I have this one near field monitor style and the guitar sounds very accurate.
Lon, forgive me, but I think you might be missing the point of one of the major improvements that EnABL accomplishes - which I'd describe as improvements in the coherency of time domain resulting in enhanced sense of dimensions and pace.
Having on numerous occasions conducted a similar A/B demonstration to the one Bud described earlier, I can imagine that a single channel comparison would not reveal the full story.
The "trifoil" pattern was something Dave developed, following up on information posted by Mark McKenzie, to mitigate the resonance issues in FE127E and even more notably, the FE126E. It took several iterations of both pattern locations and quantities / sequence of material application to arrive at the current motif. During this period of experimentation, it was certainly discovered that use of inappropriate or excessive amounts of materials can either exacerbate or overcompensate for the specific issues you're trying to remedy.
While it certainly helped to a great degree, it is addressing an entirely different issue than EnABL.
I think Bud would agree that that the combination of the two treatments as applied to the FE126/127 could be describes as synergetic.
I would not have a pair of126's or 127's without both treatments anywhere near me.
One of the most interesting moments at the show, for me, was right at the end of the show. Rene' Jaeger, who had lent his marvelous high voltage SE amp to the proceedings, insisted that we bring the full on Bamboo Fonkens with Fe 127's in them, out into the main listening room.
They left everyone enthralled and then Aengus moved his Harvey's out and the show got even better.
The moment I liked the most was with an XRCD of Sister Drum playing at volume levels that , when the drum was struck, the voice coil was thrown completely out of the gap, so the music was interrupted with these pulses of silence. No distortion, no loss of musical quality and no compression. And this was after completely trashing all but one system on offer, including some of Earl's, with Bach organ contate and Russian orthodox chorales, with their amazing depth and blend of male and female voices.
The one speaker system that was right in there, performing at the level of the Fonken and Harvey duo, was the pair that won the last pacific northwest speaker shoot out in 2008. Built by Dave Rosgaard, who took what looked an awful lot like plain vanilla Vifa drivers and through extremely clever SERIES crossover design and a non resonant box design, made these drivers perform very close to the equal of the Fonken/Harvey duo. A slight lack of downward dynamics and a narrower sweet spot were the only drawbacks I heard. And, had the 127's not been there, these speakers would have ruled.
Bud
One of the most interesting moments at the show, for me, was right at the end of the show. Rene' Jaeger, who had lent his marvelous high voltage SE amp to the proceedings, insisted that we bring the full on Bamboo Fonkens with Fe 127's in them, out into the main listening room.
They left everyone enthralled and then Aengus moved his Harvey's out and the show got even better.
The moment I liked the most was with an XRCD of Sister Drum playing at volume levels that , when the drum was struck, the voice coil was thrown completely out of the gap, so the music was interrupted with these pulses of silence. No distortion, no loss of musical quality and no compression. And this was after completely trashing all but one system on offer, including some of Earl's, with Bach organ contate and Russian orthodox chorales, with their amazing depth and blend of male and female voices.
The one speaker system that was right in there, performing at the level of the Fonken and Harvey duo, was the pair that won the last pacific northwest speaker shoot out in 2008. Built by Dave Rosgaard, who took what looked an awful lot like plain vanilla Vifa drivers and through extremely clever SERIES crossover design and a non resonant box design, made these drivers perform very close to the equal of the Fonken/Harvey duo. A slight lack of downward dynamics and a narrower sweet spot were the only drawbacks I heard. And, had the 127's not been there, these speakers would have ruled.
Bud
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Dave, Planet-10 isn't exactly on the other side of the world. Do you have a problem buying from Canada? I can't imagine anyone with more experience.
Bob
Bob, I already have the drivers. Shipping to Canada, clearing customs and shipping
back all adds up. Besides the last thing I shipped Dave simply got lost in the mail
for about 6 months !
back all adds up. Besides the last thing I shipped Dave simply got lost in the mail
for about 6 months !
Well, Bud could certainly do them for you, or you could organize an exchange with Dave.
Woody is right, the logistics of shipping all but special drivers to me for treatment are such that it makes more sense to buy a fresh set and sell the old set locally.
dave
dave
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That's what Ed Lafontaine does... what i think woody wants is someone to install them besides himself.
dave
G'day lon,
When comparing treated vs. stock drivers (as opposed to a pair of treated vs. a pair of stock), the treated driver is usually percieved as 'less loud' on first impression. The initial impression that EnABL 'softens the sound' is a result of the removal of the unwanted 'hash' which we accept as 'normal' before we learn to appreciate exactly what EnABL does.
However, in reality a treated driver is not really 'softer'. In fact, it will display a much improved transient response and far greater dynamic range than the stock driver. Not to mention the subtle detail that the stock driver seems to lack.
These things become more obvious when you listen to a treated pair.
Cheers,
Alex
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