I would call that video fairly antiquated. I visited them a few years ago before covid hit and they were still stamping their compression driver diaphragms from strips of titanium, but they had some advanced tooling and lines for gluing many of their driver moving assemblies together with full automation. The essence of achieving tight driver tolerances is using just the exact same amount of adhesive necessary to build a cone/VC/spider assembly without adding any unnecessary weight. They were definitely behind most of the other driver manufacturers but you have to understand the existing culture they have in Kentucky. They do some things the old way, which may be beneficial in some regards, but you won't be forcing youre way on them if you're used to steady progress. This was definitely a component responsible for their demise under current leadership. Covid for sure hurt them badly.
What qualities does the "old fashioned way" offer except wildly varying T/S parameters, longer delivery time and higher price?
There is a kind of business/organizational decay that sometimes afflicts older US companies. I have no idea if this phenomenon applies to Eminence.
We are all aware of the kind of business failure that starts when leadership puts short term profit ahead of all else… ahead of customers and ahead of employees… and eventually the best talent finds other jobs, and customers stop placing orders, and the business spirals down to failure… how could we not be aware of this, the media loves this story, and any time it happens, they trumpet it far and wide…
But there is another kind of business failure, where the leadership and employees take care of everyone except the owners. Usually there is low turnover, so many employees are “lifers”. Usually there is very loyal customer base, and the leadership has strong bonds to their customers. Over time, wages outpace productivity, and prices are kept low. Employees are happy to work for a low stress, low-key company with good pay, and customers are happy with low prices. The only ones not being looked after are the owners (shareholders). They get a tiny dividend, and no growth in stock price. In a publicly traded company, a new board can be voted in, but often these companies are easy targets for takeovers, and rightfully so. A buyout is often the only way the owners can get their money back out of the business… the new owners clean house, sometimes they take the company private and turn it around… sometimes the only way to truly clean house is to sell off the assets and close the place down. No one talks about this kind of business failure, except to hurl expletives at the new leadership who have to make hard decisions that the previous management should have been made decades ago…
Again, I have no idea what is going on at Eminence. But keep in mind this kind of decay failure as we learn more about the situation…
We are all aware of the kind of business failure that starts when leadership puts short term profit ahead of all else… ahead of customers and ahead of employees… and eventually the best talent finds other jobs, and customers stop placing orders, and the business spirals down to failure… how could we not be aware of this, the media loves this story, and any time it happens, they trumpet it far and wide…
But there is another kind of business failure, where the leadership and employees take care of everyone except the owners. Usually there is low turnover, so many employees are “lifers”. Usually there is very loyal customer base, and the leadership has strong bonds to their customers. Over time, wages outpace productivity, and prices are kept low. Employees are happy to work for a low stress, low-key company with good pay, and customers are happy with low prices. The only ones not being looked after are the owners (shareholders). They get a tiny dividend, and no growth in stock price. In a publicly traded company, a new board can be voted in, but often these companies are easy targets for takeovers, and rightfully so. A buyout is often the only way the owners can get their money back out of the business… the new owners clean house, sometimes they take the company private and turn it around… sometimes the only way to truly clean house is to sell off the assets and close the place down. No one talks about this kind of business failure, except to hurl expletives at the new leadership who have to make hard decisions that the previous management should have been made decades ago…
Again, I have no idea what is going on at Eminence. But keep in mind this kind of decay failure as we learn more about the situation…
Many smaller US companies with manufacturing ties to China are dying at an alarming rate…….tremendous socio-economic troubles going on there with the work force as wages skyrocket and the demographic of available workers shrink. Most responsible economists have seen this coming for a few years now and understand fully that the US cannot untie itself from this sinking ship fast enough. The US race for semiconductor independence is actually an existential threat for the west as nearly 8 out of 10 electronic products will have extended lead times of 18-24 months by the end of 2024 with current trends. It’s always the unintended consequences that get overlooked. The UAW know this…..no better time to go on strike when there’s little to no parts to assemble anyways.
Talking about Eminence, I picked up a couple of these for just £24.99 each, for use as midranges in a baffleless system:
https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-a...KhfpM_gcfC7y6mQoDHkfpIcYBQsFmBQxoCk3sQAvD_BwE
(The 16ohm version is available even cheaper at £19.99 each.) They were obviously intended for OEM use in Eden bass cabs, but now seem to be surplus items as Eden have been purchased by Marshall.
On arrival, I was surprised by the weight. No cheap pressed steel chassis here - they're substantial castings, and beautifully finished. After a few quick measurements frequency response turns out to be quite smooth, quite well behaved, distortion reasonably low - though you can bet there are no shorting rings here. And they sound good (with the requisite dipole EQ), plus of course they're sensitive.
I just thought I'd mention it, for anyone looking for a bargain low-cost 12" driver for similar applications - or for parties etc!
https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-a...KhfpM_gcfC7y6mQoDHkfpIcYBQsFmBQxoCk3sQAvD_BwE
(The 16ohm version is available even cheaper at £19.99 each.) They were obviously intended for OEM use in Eden bass cabs, but now seem to be surplus items as Eden have been purchased by Marshall.
On arrival, I was surprised by the weight. No cheap pressed steel chassis here - they're substantial castings, and beautifully finished. After a few quick measurements frequency response turns out to be quite smooth, quite well behaved, distortion reasonably low - though you can bet there are no shorting rings here. And they sound good (with the requisite dipole EQ), plus of course they're sensitive.
I just thought I'd mention it, for anyone looking for a bargain low-cost 12" driver for similar applications - or for parties etc!
That difference looks an awful lot like import duties. Similar to the higher price of European-made drivers like Faital or Beyma in the US.
@kipman725 Once you get into the price range of these all-out drivers, you're mainly paying for durability and power handling, not so much cleaner FR and fidelity. There are a few hidden gems of larger LF drivers under $200 which perform on par with the higher end ones.
You don't always need shorting rings, massive VCs and cast baskets to sound good. While I'm not a big fan of stamped baskets, they're more than adequate for most applications. Cast baskets are mainly needed for durability purposes, ie for rough road handling and extra cooling.
The lowly Beta 8a is a great performer, especially in the mids. This driver has some of the sweetest mids I've heard from any 8 inch. Its my goto budget PA driver for small 2 ways regardless of price and its very durable. No fancy bells and whistles, just money spent where its needed. Theres an art to making cheap drivers like this, which Eminence is very good at.
You don't always need shorting rings, massive VCs and cast baskets to sound good. While I'm not a big fan of stamped baskets, they're more than adequate for most applications. Cast baskets are mainly needed for durability purposes, ie for rough road handling and extra cooling.
The lowly Beta 8a is a great performer, especially in the mids. This driver has some of the sweetest mids I've heard from any 8 inch. Its my goto budget PA driver for small 2 ways regardless of price and its very durable. No fancy bells and whistles, just money spent where its needed. Theres an art to making cheap drivers like this, which Eminence is very good at.
I would think, the margins for a an EU distributor buying Eminence in "bulk" in the USA would be big enoug to compensate for this. I may be off. Still if the Asian brands have lower import duties, it coult be an important factor for Emninence abroad.
I don't know anything about the drivers, I'm afraid. I bought on reputation and bargain price - plus the fact that, as an intended mid driver, most of the usual parameters aren't particularly relevant. And I certainly haven't made any measurements relevant to T-S parameters.
I would think that, as a driver intended for bass guitar amplification, Xmax would be reasonable but not up to normal subwoofer standards. The cone is reasonably heavy, but the suspension is a bit stiffer than a driver's intended for sub use, so fs will be fairly high. Voice coil and magnet are both large - I'd expect a reasonably low Qts and high power handling. I wouldn't earmark it for a bass-reflex system though...
Sorry I can't be of more help!
I had to order this lol.
Another 12” project coming up then.
I’ll try it as a bass for a 3-way heresy inspired retro studio monitor.
Do bear in mind that these are not traditional bass drivers intended for hi-fi, so they won't "do" very low bass - but will go very loud, especially with a powerful amplifier.
@profiguy I'm at the stage where I notice a difference between the B&C 21DS115 with its 4.5" coil and the 21SW152 with its 6" coil as we push them hard for hours at a time. The other day I had to reduce our LF extension mid gig from 30Hz to 35Hz to get rid of +3dB of EQ boost because I was hitting my thermal limiters too much*. Reducing the boost, increasing the LF corner frequency gave us a noticable 3dB increase in output. Perhaps the IPAL it would be even better but it would result in an overall reduction in performance due to not been able to afford as many subs. Currently running 8 SKRAMS with 21SW152-4 and 4000w per channel amplifiers.
*this was not a huge gig perhaps 500 people max but outdoors and we where running a broadside cardiod array that effectivly gave us only the output of 4 subs as it was most important to limit spill. If we hadn't controled where the bass was going so tightly we would have not been able to go as loud as other stages would have complained.
*this was not a huge gig perhaps 500 people max but outdoors and we where running a broadside cardiod array that effectivly gave us only the output of 4 subs as it was most important to limit spill. If we hadn't controled where the bass was going so tightly we would have not been able to go as loud as other stages would have complained.
I am aware. But how bad can it be. The drivers are used in a bass guitar amp with a 40hz claimed response in a 212 config and 32hz in a 112 cab. If I cut at 250hz to a midrange I’m sure it will be ok. Sure I can add a 18” sub to my system later.
https://www.edenamps.com/product/d212xst/
https://www.edenamps.com/product/d112xst/
I hope they'll keep making the Cannabis Rex, my favorite guitar speaker. I bought it on a whim, just because I like the name, and it turns out to be an exceptional speaker.
IPALs are only interesting when budget is not a constraint.
In all other cases, I don't see any practical benefits.
Most customers I know, would rather have a whole bunch of 2x18 inch subs so they can much easier mix and match, depending on the job and venue.
These things would also sell like crazy.
Only in a handful of cases (mostly fixed), I have seen interest in 21 inch subs.
@b_force looking at a high performance 2*18" like the KS28 its about the same weight as a SKRAM loaded with B&C 21SW152:
https://www.production-partner.de/test/l-acoustics-ks28-im-test/
https://www.l-acoustics.com/products/ks28/
Perfomance also is quite simlar, however you have to pay for two drivers rather than one driver so the overall the box is more expensive.
https://www.production-partner.de/test/l-acoustics-ks28-im-test/
https://www.l-acoustics.com/products/ks28/
Perfomance also is quite simlar, however you have to pay for two drivers rather than one driver so the overall the box is more expensive.
I was just reflecting what the vast majority of costumers want.
That doesn't necessarily means I agree with it either 😀
Although I guess for them it's apparently a good compromise between size, costs and how much can be done with it.