Just to be more precise.. I think that all ebay DACs sounds equally bad, simply because they use poor designed output stage..
Comparison of AK4396 and AK4399 was done with discrete output stage, also with the revised and simplified opamp output.. and we did not hear any difference in the sound
Same nonsense in the output stage are placed in expensive and in low-cost devices.. differences are mostly cosmetic..
Hi linuxworks
The dual AK4399 DAC needs software control (serial mode), if it is to be used in mono mode. So a micro controller is necessary to make it work. Adding a display and some controls is a logical step, if you have a micro controller already.
You are also suggesting that the dual AK4399 board is designed badly, probably with autorouter. I think you have a general opinion about Chinese designs for sale at Ebay, which is ok, but it can't possibly be based on studying all boards.
Rather than marking all cheap boards at Ebay 'junk', maybe you could help us, with your rather critical view, to separate one design from the other in terms of good or bad routing/design?
What, for example, should be redone with the design of this particular dual AK4399 board? I'm always eager to learn...
If someone ordered the dual AK4399 board unsoldered, maybe take some pictures of the board, so we can judge about the track routing easier.
The dual AK4399 DAC needs software control (serial mode), if it is to be used in mono mode. So a micro controller is necessary to make it work. Adding a display and some controls is a logical step, if you have a micro controller already.
You are also suggesting that the dual AK4399 board is designed badly, probably with autorouter. I think you have a general opinion about Chinese designs for sale at Ebay, which is ok, but it can't possibly be based on studying all boards.
Rather than marking all cheap boards at Ebay 'junk', maybe you could help us, with your rather critical view, to separate one design from the other in terms of good or bad routing/design?
What, for example, should be redone with the design of this particular dual AK4399 board? I'm always eager to learn...
If someone ordered the dual AK4399 board unsoldered, maybe take some pictures of the board, so we can judge about the track routing easier.
vulejov: I see...
linuxworks: no doubt, you will be foolish to think you can buy board for $100 with sound of $1000, I hope nobody is expecting it but if you set yourself some limit i.e. $100-200 for equipped board you will be limited to Chinese products (not necessarily ebay) or do you know about any better solution? no offense, just question
linuxworks: no doubt, you will be foolish to think you can buy board for $100 with sound of $1000, I hope nobody is expecting it but if you set yourself some limit i.e. $100-200 for equipped board you will be limited to Chinese products (not necessarily ebay) or do you know about any better solution? no offense, just question
I have not looked at the 4399 chip in detail but I'll trust that it does need software to put it into mono mode. (the wolfson chip that I'm more familiar with, used on the dac7, can be put into mono mode with just a pin setting, so even hw-mode can do that).
all I'm saying is that I can't see evidence of in-depth design in any of the ebay boards. at best, they follow manuf ref designs and at worse they try to 2nd guess the designs.
the power supplies are always all at one end of the board. while cosmetically it 'looks good' that way, its far from optimal. long trace length is what ruins a high-end design. a 4 layer board would also be a great choice but they don't do that (for cost). cost matters more than performance and this is another reason why I don't have any confidence in the china boards.
the psu's are a joke. so many trafos and windings needed. better, more elegant designs will use a single supply (could be dual rail) and will locally derive voltages as-needed. adding more diodes, caps, heatsinks and reg chips hanging off more trafo windings is something I'd expect from a fresher or college-grad who is just starting out. any of us could do a 'psu' like this, but it is as unelegant as it can be. more trafos mean more hum and noise and weight and, in spite of the whole idea, extra cost!
is there a method to analog and digital grounding? no, I don't see it in any of these boards. are there isolated areas for digital and analog on the boards? no! sometimes they even do really stupid things like putting a 5v oscillator can on the board to drive an spdif receiver that runs on 3.3v (sheesh).
I'm not saying I'm a great dac designer; but if I can see these obvious design flaws, its pretty disgraceful. a real dac designer would probably find 10x as many design flaws.
its a sub-$100 board, it sounds 'ok' and it gets you access to a pretty nice chip. the chip works and sound comes out. I don't expect much more than that, to be honest.
what we get from ebay is a 'design thrown over the wall' to us. no testing, no background data, no graphs, no papers by the designer saying what he tried, what didn't work, what worked better, etc. you get that from better designers (I'm following the AMB.org discussion on his new gamma-3 high end diy dac) and you'll see 10+ pages of design decisions, testing, simulation, etc. THAT inspires confidence. this is a true designer. but the ebay guys don't 'show their work' and so there's no hope of even helping them avoid design pitfalls.
I don't think I'm asking too much. its not like every designer just magically shows up with a 'done' project. the ones that show their work are the ones that have DONE their work. to me, that makes all the difference.
all I'm saying is that I can't see evidence of in-depth design in any of the ebay boards. at best, they follow manuf ref designs and at worse they try to 2nd guess the designs.
the power supplies are always all at one end of the board. while cosmetically it 'looks good' that way, its far from optimal. long trace length is what ruins a high-end design. a 4 layer board would also be a great choice but they don't do that (for cost). cost matters more than performance and this is another reason why I don't have any confidence in the china boards.
the psu's are a joke. so many trafos and windings needed. better, more elegant designs will use a single supply (could be dual rail) and will locally derive voltages as-needed. adding more diodes, caps, heatsinks and reg chips hanging off more trafo windings is something I'd expect from a fresher or college-grad who is just starting out. any of us could do a 'psu' like this, but it is as unelegant as it can be. more trafos mean more hum and noise and weight and, in spite of the whole idea, extra cost!
is there a method to analog and digital grounding? no, I don't see it in any of these boards. are there isolated areas for digital and analog on the boards? no! sometimes they even do really stupid things like putting a 5v oscillator can on the board to drive an spdif receiver that runs on 3.3v (sheesh).
I'm not saying I'm a great dac designer; but if I can see these obvious design flaws, its pretty disgraceful. a real dac designer would probably find 10x as many design flaws.
its a sub-$100 board, it sounds 'ok' and it gets you access to a pretty nice chip. the chip works and sound comes out. I don't expect much more than that, to be honest.
what we get from ebay is a 'design thrown over the wall' to us. no testing, no background data, no graphs, no papers by the designer saying what he tried, what didn't work, what worked better, etc. you get that from better designers (I'm following the AMB.org discussion on his new gamma-3 high end diy dac) and you'll see 10+ pages of design decisions, testing, simulation, etc. THAT inspires confidence. this is a true designer. but the ebay guys don't 'show their work' and so there's no hope of even helping them avoid design pitfalls.
I don't think I'm asking too much. its not like every designer just magically shows up with a 'done' project. the ones that show their work are the ones that have DONE their work. to me, that makes all the difference.
So, just to be clear, you mean: AK4396 and AK4399 designs sound the same, because of the equal implementation of the output stage, right?
If you hear no difference in sound after replacing the analog output stage of an AK4396 or AK4399 DAC with a discrete one... sorry, that doesn't make sense, if you say it's the output stage that make them sound bad.
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Hi I have put some pics of AK4399 pcb unsolderd on my profile it's not the same as my pcb it's the later B version.
I'm hearing all the comments on the ebay boards, but if it's a question of buying one and not another, is this the current favourite? It has the AK4118. From min9988
Hi-end DA-X2B AK4399+AK4399(parallel)+AK4118+LME49710 USB DAC Soft control | eBay
Hi-end DA-X2B AK4399+AK4399(parallel)+AK4118+LME49710 USB DAC Soft control | eBay
I am pleased with my DA-X2A sounds good to me.
Im not sure if you noticed that's the unsolderd version.
I got the unsolderd version as well but wished I had got the solderd version for about the extra £10 at the time.
I havnt got the USB pcb yet but plan on adding that later.
andyjevans: yes, but I don't know the seller, I'm not buying things from ebay
Dave: I don't think it's marginally better, there are different components but as vulejov mentioned I wouldn't expect any sound differences so, depended on if you would be willing to pay $60 extra for version with AK4118 chip
Dave: I don't think it's marginally better, there are different components but as vulejov mentioned I wouldn't expect any sound differences so, depended on if you would be willing to pay $60 extra for version with AK4118 chip
so pre-final A/B comparison
round #1
2xWM8741 with 2604 vs. 2xAK4399 with LME49710HA
+ detailed, open, dynamic, wide soundstage
- highs haaaaaaaaarsh like hell
+ detailed, relaxing, dynamic, not so wide but 3D
- mids bit behind, not so open
2xAK4399 with ADA4627-1BRZ
+ detailed, open, dynamic, wider soundstage
- still harsh but less than LME
2xAK4399 with OPA627AU
+ detailed, open, relaxing (similar to 2604)
- noisy like hell, not so wide soundstage and dynamic
round #2
2xWM8741 with AD823 vs. 2xAK4399 with ADA4627-1BRZ
I couldn't hear any difference, may be because of too long listening, comparing and brainwash or they were really same sounding. I was also thinking that my set up couldn't recognized differences anymore, may be if I got better amp and speakers I might hear differences
round #3
other opamps are on the way but this one once everything sorted
round #1
2xWM8741 with 2604 vs. 2xAK4399 with LME49710HA
+ detailed, open, dynamic, wide soundstage
- highs haaaaaaaaarsh like hell
+ detailed, relaxing, dynamic, not so wide but 3D
- mids bit behind, not so open
2xAK4399 with ADA4627-1BRZ
+ detailed, open, dynamic, wider soundstage
- still harsh but less than LME
2xAK4399 with OPA627AU
+ detailed, open, relaxing (similar to 2604)
- noisy like hell, not so wide soundstage and dynamic
round #2
2xWM8741 with AD823 vs. 2xAK4399 with ADA4627-1BRZ
I couldn't hear any difference, may be because of too long listening, comparing and brainwash or they were really same sounding. I was also thinking that my set up couldn't recognized differences anymore, may be if I got better amp and speakers I might hear differences
round #3
other opamps are on the way but this one once everything sorted
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thanks for all comments.
the benefit of eBay dac is only the pcb and smd chips on.
you can buy ex the AK4396 board with smd on, $22 shipped.
own psu, own output stage, own usb to i2s board or othe i2s receiver.
i did it. objective compair to:
PS-Audio dl300 heavily modded by Culen Sirquit
Primare CD21 player
McCormack dac1
it sounds best of them
based on red-book hearing only. and the thread is here
I'm steel using the on board reciever.
the output stage is NO output stgae. just caps to filter DC. it is a V-out standard cd 2v.
the beauty of this chip is It plays with pace & rhythm fidelity but relaxed. Something that I heard from Linn top players.
the benefit of eBay dac is only the pcb and smd chips on.
you can buy ex the AK4396 board with smd on, $22 shipped.
own psu, own output stage, own usb to i2s board or othe i2s receiver.
i did it. objective compair to:
PS-Audio dl300 heavily modded by Culen Sirquit
Primare CD21 player
McCormack dac1
it sounds best of them
based on red-book hearing only. and the thread is here
I'm steel using the on board reciever.
the output stage is NO output stgae. just caps to filter DC. it is a V-out standard cd 2v.
the beauty of this chip is It plays with pace & rhythm fidelity but relaxed. Something that I heard from Linn top players.
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