Drivers for Ariel speakers

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The Ariel and ME2 are now pretty old; I think the design was completed in 1993 or a bit earlier. For that matter, I’m older too, hiding from the pandemic, waiting for the vaccine, so I’m not very active in audio at present. Maybe some time in 2021?

As for a clean-sheet redesign, if you wanted the same sound quality, I’d aim for low diffraction, very close in-phase tracking between drivers in the crossover region, freedom from in-band peaking, and maybe a TL, a short bass horn, or an open-baffle for the bass region to avoid box coloration. Hit all those goals and it will sound like an Ariel (if you give it a slightly warm balance).

P.S. The new Klipsch Cornwall IV sounds more like an Ariel than you might expect. An excellent speaker right out of the box, and easy to upgrade with Dynamat damping felt on the horn exteriors. The next step beyond would be replacing the stock supertweeter with a Fostex horn mounted on top of the cabinet and time-aligned with the MF horn.
 
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Hi Lynn, how are you ? Thankyou for your reply.

But I am just a DIY person with no knowledge of technical terms you mentioned.

Would you recommend a replacement speaker unit (with crossover design) to get back say 99% of the ME2 performance ?

Take care, and wear a mask when you are out and about.

Thankyou again for your Ariel and ME2 !

Cheers.
 
Hi there, I’m hunkering down in Colorado, which has about 500 new cases/day in a population of 5.75 million. This is our third peak so far, maybe it’ll quiet down to about half that number in a month or two. Since I’m an old fart now, it’s in my interest to play it safe ... all groceries are delivered to our (garage) door, cold items are washed in soap and water, room temp boxes stay in a corner of the garage for a day or two, the dog gets several walks a day (while we wear masks when others are about), and the cars get driven once a week. That’s how it’s been since March 5th. I think you can see how eager I am for a vaccine so I can get out of captivity. There’s good info they will be available in the 1st quarter of 2021. Just gotta hang in there until then. Fortunately, it’s a nice big house with a view of the Rocky Mountains, and it borders on a green space so it’s nice place for dog walks. So I’m doing OK so far. But I very much envy our friends in New Zealand, Perth, and Taiwan, which look nice and safe compared to the madhouse the USA has become.

As for replacement drivers for the ME2, well, I bought the last ones in stock at Madisound many years ago. I am suspicious that Vifa snuck in production changes since the original ones used in 1993 ... most likely different values for compliance, which then raises Fs a bit. But that’s only a guess. One of the reasons that commercial manufacturers specify custom drivers is to prevent production changes in drivers, which would then require a re-design, or even the discontinuation of a speaker model. This is what has happened to the Ariel ... not enough demand, so away they go. It was a good run while it lasted.

I don’t know which midbass drivers have ultra-flat responses in and above the passband these days. There’s been a fad for 4” to 7” fullrange drivers, but most are grossly nonflat in the passband, and are completely unsuited to the Ariel. It would look the same, but would sound horrible. And digital EQ takes us down a completely different road ... not necessarily bad, but a whole different approach with different tradeoffs. The Ariel was always meant to be a fairly simple speaker that relied on very well-behaved drivers. Take it way from that, and it starts to sound different. In particular, if the drivers have roughness in the crossover region, the sweetness and spatial qualities start to go away, or become far more resource-intensive to reach.

I am convinced that “analytical” speakers have rough response areas in the crossover octave, which distorts the vertical polar pattern and introduces time-distortion overhangs in a critical region of the spectrum. These aren’t obvious on FR curves, but appear when you look at each driver by itself.
 
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I was serious about the new Klipsch Cornwall IV’s. They are probably the most natural-sounding speaker Klipsch has ever made, and I’m not being snide or snarky here. They’re just plain good ... and the predecessors are pretty good too, after a few mods are made. I had a pair of Klipsch Forte’s for a while, and they are easy to mod for much higher performance. In a sense, the new Cornwall IV’s have the mods already made at the factory, and have much more sophisticated crossovers than before. Anyway, the new Cornwalls, or the older, modded versions, are legitimate replacements for the Ariels.

However ... modding the Klipsch LaScala is a much more ambitious project, and can end in a long search for the perfect bass horn, trading off horn size against smoothness of response and the elusive LF pattern control. That can become quite a rabbit-hole, and is only suited for those who have the patience to get really deep into horn design. You folks know who you are, and I doubt you would have any interest in modifying a commercial bass horn (like the LaScala) anyway.
 
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The Peerless are some of my favorites, but the hds is much steeper in rolloff, the tpy has a cliff, so you'll never get a similar handoff to the tweeter as the p13.

The p17 is back in production(at scanspeak), perhaps with a 1.5" tweeter you might be able to use similar(slightly lower freq.) slopes.

An Ariel on steroids- a Gabriel, maybe?
 
The Danish Purifi PTT6.5WO8 certainly looks nice and has a solid design philosophy, free of dumb gimmick cones or weird magnet shapes. Too bad about the astronomical price, though ... a quartet of these is getting into real money, and that still leaves open the choices for the tweeter. (Quick note: the little micro-ribbons that are so popular now have have marginal power-handling in the below 2kHz region, so are not good candidates for a modernized Ariel.)

Still, the Purifi designers have their priorities in the right place, based on their design comments. Minimizing IM distortion under dynamic conditions of varying signal levels is very important, and an area where many commercial high-end speakers fall down rather badly. The high crossover of 3.8 kHz in the Ariel is there for a reason ... to keep IM distortion in the tweeter to a minimum. I find speakers with colorations that come and go, depending on IM distortion stress levels, very fatiguing to listen to.

And I guess I shouldn’t be too shocked at the price. The original Ariel drivers were all made in Denmark and Norway, and products made in those countries are now much more expensive.
 
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Dear Lynn,

I have done a search and have a look at the Klipsch Cornwall IV.

It looks a very pleasing speaker pair, and if its performance comes any close to the Ariel, I will love it.

Looking at the price that comes with it, I really have to say thankyou to Lynn over and over again, for sharing his Ariel and ME2, that I can enjoy the same or even better performance for much less.

Without a replacement for the Vifa in ME2, I think I better start now to save up for my daughter's birthday present next year !

Thankyou kindly again Lynn for your generosity to share the desing of Ariel and ME2.
 
I see there is already a thread on the Purifi 6.5” driver (didn’t see it when I made the previous post). Good stuff there. I would use a pair in MTM, with the tweeter offset in the Golden Section ratio used in the Ariel, and my current instincts lean towards a beryllium dome tweeter on a short waveguide, with gentle EQ to offset the midfrequency gain boost of the waveguide. I would also retain the paired transmission lines, retuned for the Purifi 6.5” drivers, and the asymmetric roundovers on the left and right cabinet edges.

A key concept is the LF and HF drivers are complementary in having low IM distortion in the extremely critical 1 to 5 kHz region, where the ear has the greatest sensitivity to distortion and lowest tolerance of stored-energy hangover and driver peaking, which is also why an exemplary crossover is required (with very accurate phase-tracking in the crossover region). This is not the place for a basic 1st-order network, nor a one-size-fits-all 4th-order electronic crossover. Phase tracking has to be exact over at least one octave.

A speaker like this would have about a 3 to 5 dB gain in headroom, and a substantial reduction of IM distortion, compared to the original Ariel, while retaining much of its character. But it is an entirely new design, and I’m not the one to do it. (I guess I would be open to long-distance consulting if asked, but not for free.)

Given the cost of the drivers and a more complex crossover using premium parts, a commercial version have to sell in the $15,000 to $20,000 region, about three times the price of the Klipsch Cornwall IV.
 
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Exploring Purifi Woofer Speaker Builds

Lots of good discussion here, with my previous post showing my own design preferences. However ... an MTM using these drivers and a top-range beryllium tweeter, along with a premium crossover and an Ariel-quality speaker cabinet, would cost as much as a new pair of Klipsch Cornwall IV’s. And these can always be sold to a willing Klipsch enthusiast. The Ariel fan club is much smaller.

By the way, I lived in Hong Kong between 1961 and 1966, and went to King George the Fifth secondary school. That’s the old Hong Kong of Kai Tak airport with Boeing 707’s going in and out, no MTR, just the Star Ferry crossing the harbor, only two channels of 405-line monochrome TV (one channel of English programming and one channel of Cantonese programming), and occasional water rationing because of no pipeline links to mainland China.

Shenzhen was just a little farming village on a muddy river. When I looked through the binoculars across the border at the little village, I never thought it would become a mighty city fifty years later.
 
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I get a bit cross at people who wander into my local Grocery store without facemasks. But restrain my fighting instincts. :D

Here's a couple of modern and decent 5" polycone drivers, Lynn.

Peerless HDS PPB 830860

Peerless TPY05W08O0088 5-1/4" Heritage Family Woofer 8 Ohm

I particularly like the reflex Peerless 830860. But I could be wrong. :)

S7, an off topic, what do you think of the HDS 8" Nomex 860869 for a 35/40l BR in the 50 hz to circa 800 hz please ?

sorry, for the Ariel on stero, in the 6"s: one which coul be an Lynn Olson candidate because the roll off is the Audax HM170Z18 ....
 
Hi Lynn,

Having looked at the price indication of the Purifi unit, I tend to agree with you about the Klipsch Cornwall IV’.

I better start saving up fast then.

Welcome to Hong Kong during her best of time. I went to St. Francis Xavier College then before I went to Texas A&M in 1970. I migrated to Australia in 1989 after the May 35th incident in China. I am now in HK because of my +90 year old mother.

But sorry to say, the HK we knew is no longer there anymore, my friend.

<political cartoon removed> :cop:

Keep safe, wear a mask when out and about, wash your hands before touching your eyes and nose.


All the best !
 
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Thank you so much S7 :). I really hesitate with the Audax 8" HM210Z0-8 : 0.42 mH... but a litte too much sensitive at 91 db/2.83V perhaps to cut-off at 750 hz with a 87.5 2.83V mid, despite the bafle step .I imagine not being more than 1.5 db there on a little bafle... I have to Edge it to know !


Sorry to others for the slighty off topic. AUdax aerogel for the Ariel on steroid due to the 6", has a very good midrange tones... but maybe a little dry in the low end for a classical music speaker for what the Ariel was made perhaps.
 
Hi, king4joy! Couldn’t help throwing in a few Hong Kong memories. My father was in the US Foreign Service, and unlike the expat Brits, didn’t believe in sending their kids off to boarding school. That’s an upper-class Brit custom that just seems weird and cruel to most Americans.

So, KGV was there for expat families that wanted their children to stay in Hong Kong. The school taught entirely in English, since it was basically an expat school at the time, but there were some Chinese students from local families with international backgrounds. At the time, it was a very diverse but highly educated student body. The English aspect of the education came in very handy for a later career as a tech writer, since writing comes easily for me.

I did get some bonuses out of the experience ... seeing core memory being hand-assembled for Apollo computers, a visit to the nuclear-powered Enterprise aircraft carrier (this was during the Vietnam war), an aerial tour of Hong Kong on a Lockheed Super Constellation operated by the FAA (the FAA was there to calibrate and verify Kai Tak airport), and other adventures. The US Consulate was the size and scale of many embassies, so it was an important posting for my father. Since there were no diplomatic relations between the USA and China at the time, the Consulate served as a critical listening post to China. The roof was covered in antennas, and I was pretty sure HK had just as many spies running around as West Berlin.

It was intense time to be in HK, since the Vietnam War was boiling away 800 miles to the south, China was convulsed by the Cultural Revolution, and more than a million refugees arrived in HK. And there was plenty of activities by agents from the KMT (Taiwan) and the CCP (China) ... riots, bomb plots foiled by the HK police, all combined with a refined but exotic expat atmosphere of an international city with first-run movie theaters and an important stop on the international concert circuit. Hong Kong is where I first saw Kubrick’s “Dr. Strangelove“, Fellini’s “8 1/2”, the London Symphony Orchestra, and the Beatles.

Also the first place I heard the Quad ESL57, Stax headphones, and bought my first SLR, a Pentax Spotmatic. Photography was a big thing there, since HK was where the international press corps bought their photo equipment to cover the Vietnam War, along with being the preferred R&R destination of the troops in the war. The war-weary troops headed for the dubious attractions of Wanchai, while I was interested in photo stores and the audio gear at Radio People, the local high-end store.
 
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You are bringing back memories....memories are good.

If you have gone to the City Hall for concerts, I am sure I must have met you there then !

Even as not a expat, I have lived quite well and have a very good childhood in HK then.

But my parents had always wanted their sons to move away from HK ASAP.

I was sent to Texas A&M to study, with the thinking that I might not return to HK.

But HK is so unforgettable to me then, that I have returned to HK after enjoying my 5 years in the US of A.

My 5 years in the USA was unforgettable too, I did have a good time in the US, in college, with a GPA of 3.25. I am not saying I dislike USA, but as a youngster, I would want to return to my friends, and my home town, after graduation.

But it happened that most of my friends have migrated out of HK already.

As much as I like to stay and try to squeeze the last drop of HK for my own enjoyment, I HAVE to up anchor and migrate to Australia in 1989 when the May 35th (June 4th) incident happened, much because I have the responsibility of a
2 months old daughter with me then.

We never look back then.

I am sad and sorry to say the HK we know, is no longer there.

Transfer - Dropbox

P.S.: we have experience that the Quad ESL gave up sparks sometimes during listening because the humidity in HK is very high.

Take care, my friend, adcheers.



Memories are good, but can't look back most of the time.
 
I'm not Lynn, but until he is able to reply, you can draw a number of conclusions simply from looking at them. The LX Mini is a semi-omni / cardioid running active filtering / DSP at a relatively low crossover frequency, a metal cone midbass 90 degrees off axis and woven cone mid-tweeter. By contrast, the Ariel is an MTM direct radiator using mineral-filled polypropylene midbass drivers and a silk dome tweeter, with a passive crossover at a relatively high frequency. Both speakers target what their own designers consider a 'natural' tonal balance / presentation, but the methods are very different.
 
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Hi Scott,

Thankyou for your reply.

In layman's term, I can understand what you say is that the LX mini is nothing to compare with the Ariel; and I cannot agree more even though I have not heard the performance of the LX mini.

I have been using ME 2 for donkey's ears, and just love the pair more everyday.

The only thing is the Vifa has been discontinuous ed, my problem is trying to find a replacement to keep the legacy of the Ariel going.

I do understand that it is little easier to find a replacement as such, but the most critical part is to have a crossover to match to give the same performance as Ariel.

I will not stop searching for that replacement because nothing I have heard in between has pleased my ears more than my ME2.

Thankyou and cheers.
 
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