+1
I have been using the A12pw drivers full range, until I get my WAW amplification and crossovers set up. Using my ACA amps. They sound better on simpler music, but put out good bass and sound fuller than my Eikona 2's or Alpair 5.3's in small MLTL monitors.
I have been using the A12pw drivers full range, until I get my WAW amplification and crossovers set up. Using my ACA amps. They sound better on simpler music, but put out good bass and sound fuller than my Eikona 2's or Alpair 5.3's in small MLTL monitors.
Since the 12.2p lacks bass in anything but a large enclosure, would it not make sense to put it in a smaller box with a woofer? Don't the A12pw lack any top end on their own as fullrangers?
Unless you are shooting for high sensitivity along with a benign 8Ω impedance.
Not that I'm aware of. IIRC A12p "Moosebox" was designed to be matched to a bass box. Also vaguely remember something P10 Dave was playing around with years ago involving an A12p MarKen monitor atop a larger box/bass driver(s) which he wasn't very happy with.
If you are considering another Markaudio driver (and want to stick to fullrange), you can have a look at CHR-120. I'm using this driver in a Pensil and it can handle rock/metal really well in my opinion as its designed to have a bit more low frequency extension. It does require quite large boxes and enough breathing room. I believe Scott also made some DCR designs for this driver.
Rock is broad genre... if you share the names of some of the bands you enjoy, that can provide further clarity to us folks.
I tend to agree with you - even with a 5-6 watt amp, both the Alpair 10P and 12P can reach satisfactory levels of loudness for folks who do not listen at higher SPLs; however the low-frequency performance though impressive for what they are (modestly sized drivers covering an incredibly wide range of frequencies), are still short of dedicated high quality mid-bass drivers (even at similar SPL). A good 8" woofer in a WAW configuration with a 3" or 4" wideband gives a more effortless and solid bass... but alas, a 5-6 watt output capable tube amp will likely to fall short in a WAW. 🙂 Also music with more "noise" tends to not sound good with single ended tube amplifiers as these amps usually have higher intermodulation distortion.
After trying out a number of tube amplifiers over a few years, I finally made the move to solid state amps. 🙂 Of course there are some trade-offs, but paraphrasing Scottmoose, "You pick your own poison".
If I am not wrong, Scott has recently design a BVR for the Alpair 12P, and that should provide greater LF output vs a bookshelf configuration.
The Alpair 12PW is a mid-woofer with greater bandwidth vs most mid-bass drivers. So the top end will drop off much sooner vs a wideband drivers design to cover the higher frequencies also. It is assumed that you will use another driver to drive the high frequencies when using the Alpair 12PW for bass/mid-bass duty.
Matching a larger FR driver with woofers is likely to be tougher; the driver center-to-center distance increases and you have to cross the drivers lower.
The other issue is with sensitivity - you will need woofers with higher sensitivity, so that means bigger woofers... or you will have to use multiple woofers. With a larger woofer the C-to-C distance increases, and with multiple woofers you can run into other issues and possibly a more complex crossover. And with more drivers it is likely that you will need more watts. 🙂
Here's an example of a WAW done with the Alpair 10P and bass helpers. The Alpair 10P covers most of the frequency range. But I suspect that 6 watts will be inadequate for this design.
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Halcyon_1.html
There is great focus on how deep into the bass region we can reach with our drivers. There are, however, also other factors to consider for reproduction of electric, "rythmic" music. One is the 100-400 hz area where we find percussion, drums, bass etc. This is best reproduced through speakers having a wide baffle, supporting these longer wavelengths better. A narrow baffle will to a greater extent leak these frequencies to the front wall, causing echoes and cancellations. This is one reason why the vintage wide baffle speakers sound "rich" and unstrained.
A good white paper on the subject is produced by Putzeys and Grimm: "Grimm Audio’s LS1 is an unusual loudspeaker. Its wide but shallow cabinet is the direct opposite of nearly all contemporary loudspeakers: https://www.grimmaudio.com/publications/speakers-white-paper/
A good white paper on the subject is produced by Putzeys and Grimm: "Grimm Audio’s LS1 is an unusual loudspeaker. Its wide but shallow cabinet is the direct opposite of nearly all contemporary loudspeakers: https://www.grimmaudio.com/publications/speakers-white-paper/
First Boston's were like that. Marketing failure though. That was about the time the trend for no grills started so narrow boxes won.
That paper is 90% marketing BS though. Speakers may sound fine, not suggesting other wise, but to take a low end done poorly designed MTM and claim it represents other speakers is no better than snake oil. If you do not want to deal with baffle step, then go to in-wall. That actually solves several problems with diffraction and near reflections that are the cause of a lot of localization problems.
I agree that in-wall solves many of the problems, however, not all can take that route making holes in the wall. My point to the thread starter is that he can deal with some of his issues by using a wide baffle, pushing baffle step lower in frequency. About the paper, of course a company white paper is a lot of marketing, but I nevertheless find some of it's concepts interesting in today's world of slim bassreflex speakers.
I listen to mostly classic rock and prog rock. I also like singer songwriter ie Cat Stevens, Sting, Jackson Browne, some blues, not crazy about jazz but I like Diana Krall.
Last night I was listen to Pineapple Thief and Crippled Black Pheonix on the Pensil 10p and found that the music is somewhat congested during the complex passages. Bass was good but the sound lacked in other areas. Diana Krall and Tracy Chapman sound amazing on the A10p.
I say it again, I'm not looking to build an allrounder but one that would compliment the A10p. My listen area is small 3m x 5m, so the SuperPensil might be too big but I can live with that if they are the better option.
I'd be interested in hearing opinions on the A12.2p DCR and BVR.
If that is what you have, then A12.2p as midTweeter will work, but if you do not have, you should get a more suitable midTweeter.
A12p lack bottom potential, A12pw ;acks top, and does good bass, and, i think, does many other things better than A12p. So it can be used as FR but will be soft up top, fine if you can’t hear that high.
dave
Thanks Dave,
Are there any 12.2p WAW designs available where I can buy the woofer and ready-made crossovers or is it all custom?
Some say that this type of speaker is not well suited for a tube amp? What do you think?
There's no way your amp is going to drive a 2-way with a 12p and a 12pw woofer. You'd have to bi-amp.
jeff
jeff
there is a limit to small diameter piston.
use larger driver.
otherwise you have to double the effective piston area.
or as much as 4x piston area.
or if you need single driver solution
use larger speaker.
use larger driver.
otherwise you have to double the effective piston area.
or as much as 4x piston area.
or if you need single driver solution
use larger speaker.
Thanks Jeff,
I guess that pretty much eliminates the WAW.
I'm interested to know how the SuperPensils handle dynamics? On complex passages do they become congested? I'm not into heavy metal but classic rock can have passages where all instruments go at it at the same time causing congestions. How do the SP handle that?
Juillet BVR, unfortunately, it was a typo, Juielt BVR is designed for the A12pw. P10 has since made the correction.
However, via PM, Dave mentioned the possibility of a custom BVR design for A12p but was not sure if A12p would be suitable for such a design.
I'm of the feeling with the general lack of interest it's better not to waste Dr. Scott's time deliberating over a concept/driver nobody else cares about.
For me, the 12p lack of low end is not too terrible that my intent is a high'ish (preferably high but we can't have everything), sensitivity speaker for a small room. I like the "ease of sound" from high sensitivity speakers and the option to use low power amps.
I'm under the impression the best 12p designs to date, JOAN horn, Pencil/Super Pencil, all present placement challenges in small rooms. Hence my interest in the 12p DCR box only I don't think anyone has built it so no real idea of its strengths and weaknesses. To make matters worse I also do not know much about DCR boxes in general.
Are there any 12.2p WAW designs available where I can buy the woofer and ready-made crossovers or is it all custom?
You can get WAW with A12pw, but the ones with XOs are a bit scarce, and use A7x, P7x, A5x, A10p. The modular A12pw trapezoid miniOnken can be used in singles with a midTweeter on the top, or a pair with midTweeter in the middle. The included midTweeter box can be made large enuff to fit an A12p. It would make few excuses, a pair of A12pw can produce quite a bit of bottom.
(with A7x midTweeter here)
A passive XO would have to be developed, and with the relative sensitivities of the 2 drivers you would need a pair of A12pw per side to actually make one a passive work.
Why Jeff says you would need to biAmp i know not but it would be easier, and maybe cheaper than a passive.
dave
You can get WAW with A12pw, but the ones with XOs are a bit scarce, and use A7x, P7x, A5x, A10p. The modular A12pw trapezoid miniOnken can be used in singles with a midTweeter on the top, or a pair with midTweeter in the middle. The included midTweeter box can be made large enuff to fit an A12p. It would make few excuses, a pair of A12pw can produce quite a bit of bottom.
(with A7x midTweeter here)
A passive XO would have to be developed, and with the relative sensitivities of the 2 drivers you would need a pair of A12pw per side to actually make one a passive work.
Why Jeff says you would need to biAmp i know not but it would be easier, and maybe cheaper than a passive.
dave