B4 said:
There you go giving FR too much weight -- it is only 1 dimension in an n-dimensional space (with n = large)... take a speaker with a wild measured FR... what if that same speaker was ruler flat in the face of signal 40 dB higher in level... started & stopped on a dime, had no big discontinuities spacially, did rythm & pace really well.. ie accurate in many places but not the measured FR. Is that less accurate than the ruler flat speaker that is compressed & sounds like the life has been squeezed out of it?
Using FR alone as a metric is like trying to judge a vehicle's performance by its horsepower alone.
dave
planet10 said:
Who is saying frequency response is the only thing that matters??? It is being referenced because of the original post and because it is "one" of the measurable charactertistics of a speaker that almost everyone understands. As has been stated a couple times already, flat frequency response is necessary but not sufficient. To play off your analogy, I don't doubt John Hopkin's Suzuki handles well, but the horsepower is way off what Honda and Yamaha MotoGP bikes produce, and therefore it is only competitive in the rain, when horsepower isn't a deciding factor. Also, if someone could design a speaker you describe wouldn't that same speaker be "more" accurate if it did have a flat frequency response? I guess I am surprised so many people want to apologize for poorly designed over priced speakers that are dishonestly marketed as high fidelity components.
wdavis009 said:
I was refering to your comment "Why consider anything else like phase if a designer can’t even get a flat response." I took that to mean, if you can't get flat FR you might as well give up... i'm saying, that given how bad even the best speakers are, it is certainly plausible when comparing 2 speakers to have the more accurate speaker without a flat FR.
Given SYs "flat frequency response is necessary but not sufficient" there is no such thing as an accurate speaker because there are so very many valid parameters you can substitute for "flat frequency response" that no speaker possible given current technology can have all the necessary parameters.
It could well be possible that we won't have truly accurate reproduction until the human brain function has been fully mapped and the mode of transmission is a socket into the brain stem.
So until then i will continue to strive towards emotionally satisfying speakers, and, paradoxically, keep in mind that the speaker is the least important part of the chain -- a system -- where everything is important.
I had more in mind an oil tanker vrs the motorbike 🙂
Flat response and flat phase is really a trade-off in the design process. Sometimes a phase mostly within 30 degress provides more sonic benefits. Lots of spacial ques get lost if the phase deviates too much.
The speaker is the critical path in the audio chain to date. The better the speakers are, the better tuning you can do with a system, which gradually gets you to a more realistic representation of the original recording. This is the most challenging part of the audio chain as it involved knowledge of not only electical, but also structural, acoustics, aerodynamics, material, electronics, magnetics, etc.
The speaker is the critical path in the audio chain to date. The better the speakers are, the better tuning you can do with a system, which gradually gets you to a more realistic representation of the original recording. This is the most challenging part of the audio chain as it involved knowledge of not only electical, but also structural, acoustics, aerodynamics, material, electronics, magnetics, etc.
I disagree. A loudspeaker is just an electromechanical transducer. Even if you had a theoretically perfect one, what you hear would still be very distinguishable from the original event due to limitations of stereo recording/playback process, room acoustics, mike techique, etc.
By the way, the Duntech Soverieign is marketed as the "World's most accurate speaker" a claim that is hard to dispute. Flat frequency response( +/- 2dB 27Hz to 20kHz) , low harmonic distortion, linear phase, wide dynamic range, and attention to off axis response & diffraction. It's been around for more than 20 years, yet I'm yet to see a speaker than could beat it (on paper). No magic, just thorough engineering.
http://www.duntech.com.au
By the way, the Duntech Soverieign is marketed as the "World's most accurate speaker" a claim that is hard to dispute. Flat frequency response( +/- 2dB 27Hz to 20kHz) , low harmonic distortion, linear phase, wide dynamic range, and attention to off axis response & diffraction. It's been around for more than 20 years, yet I'm yet to see a speaker than could beat it (on paper). No magic, just thorough engineering.
http://www.duntech.com.au
David Gatti said:
Where can the frequency and phase response data be found? Have they ever put those and a piano live performance together?
Found the information in the table text format, wish they had a plot. Anyway, with the phase within 25 degrees, yes, they will perform very well. Yes, with the number of drivers they have, it is very possible that power compression is very small. If they can go up to 30KHz or above, it would be even better.
I used to have all the brochures showing excellent FR and phase data, and very nice reproductions of square waves. Wish they'd post it on their site.
Anyway, my point was that a speaker like the Duntech Sovereign, which measures well, is far more likely to sound accurate than something that doesn't - eg Wilson Audio Maxx.
Anyway, my point was that a speaker like the Duntech Sovereign, which measures well, is far more likely to sound accurate than something that doesn't - eg Wilson Audio Maxx.
hey guys I can get you a paire of grand slam for 25000$us like new whatta you say?? wanna? wanna?
😎
😎
Nope, it's even worse. Our auditory world is 4pi, and we completely lose height information in two channel or even 6 channel hifi.
OT, sorry
DEF: Just to show my age, I've still got ticket stubs from a Jethro Tull concert at Painters Mill....
DEF: Just to show my age, I've still got ticket stubs from a Jethro Tull concert at Painters Mill....
DEFjammer said:
It always confuses me when I see studio monitors laye d on its side. Doesn't it mess up the imaging?
SY said:
If you put the 6 channels the MDG way and play their CDs, maybe height information is restored?
Wow SY, are you ever old! 😀
My first real concert was Chicago at the Pacific Coliseum in Vancouver in 1973.
My first real concert was Chicago at the Pacific Coliseum in Vancouver in 1973.
DEFjammer said:
That's debatable Cal, but maybe I should have said "World's best passive speaker".
Planet10, I would have to agree with wdavis009 when he says
I have never said that it's the only thing that matters. I said it is link in the chain. A ruler flat speaker can sound bad, I have no problem with this.
I feel that if you can't get a flat response you have broken the chain and no matter what else you do you can't achieve accurate sound when you’re unable to play the instrument levels as they were meant to be heard. Speakers like the Wilson do not give you a real representation of the musical piece. If you take a classical piece, the conductor stipulates how loud each instrument should be played. How can anyone say the Wilson speaker can reproduce the concert accurately when the response is so off?
Planet10, why is a ruler flat speaker compressed?
Of course they do. A more interesting question is why a speaker with such measurements can 'sound good'.
B4 said:
Ruler flat is only a snapshot of the speakers FR at one level, it tells absoulutly zero about dynamics. A speaker can be perfectly flat at one level and become a mess at different levels, or it can be perfectly flat at the average level and a mess 10, 20, 30, 40 dB down.
The way a speaker gets perfectly flat is often by very complex XOs which tend to bury the detail and make the amplifier work harder -- and as seems to be becoming obvious of late that there is a general relation to amp quality being inversly proportional to amp power (ie amy more than a single output device in an SE amp, or 2 in a PP/differential amp). And you have to remember that the very best output devices developed so far limit you to 2-20 W.
I've often heard speakers that get better -- sometimes way better -- when the XO is simplified, FR gets less flat, a trade off to get something else better.
All a flat FR measurement really tells us is that the speaker is flat under the measurement conditions, which unfortunately is not often how they actually get used, but we hope extrapolates to them.
dave
planet10 said:
As an example, i attach an on axis FR measurement of a very well respected speaker -- the manufacturer is doing better than they ever have -- ie consumers are voting with their dollars -- and not because of some superb marketing maven like David Wilson... actually the opposite, the company in question has some of the poorest marketing...
Note that the measured FR is +/- 10 dB.
dave
Attachments
Depends on the speaker (obviously!) but I did hear that a simple 1st order crossover on a 2 way puts a time delay on the bass driver; if you lean or position the speaker backwards you can sometimes correct this - I once had a set up that used this principle; tweeters inbound toed in - imaging was A1
Cheers - the Fezz
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