Hi guys.
I've been reading along now (I posted early on, and have nothing to add to the sonic merits of copper/silver or anything else sonically at the moment- my system is boxed waiting for the room to be ready!
In any event, throughout the reading, I began to think: Weight is not such a good thing in a tonearm... IS there a WEIGHT advantage to silver over copper? At the same gage; not at all. I dug this out:
aluminum 2.70
zinc 7.13
iron 7.87
copper 8.96
silver 10.49
lead 11.36
mercury 13.55
gold 19.32
Silver is not THAT much heavier than Copper. Aluminum has the weight game won; however how is the flexibility? At the risk of putting out fire with gasoline (Thanks to David Bowie) is there any data comparing copper to Aluminum in listening tests (Scientific or otherwise)?
So, that's it. Just thinking 'out loud' so to speak. In a tonearm application, there MIGHT be value in using Aluminum...
I've been reading along now (I posted early on, and have nothing to add to the sonic merits of copper/silver or anything else sonically at the moment- my system is boxed waiting for the room to be ready!
In any event, throughout the reading, I began to think: Weight is not such a good thing in a tonearm... IS there a WEIGHT advantage to silver over copper? At the same gage; not at all. I dug this out:
Densities of materials
metal g/cm^3 aluminum 2.70
zinc 7.13
iron 7.87
copper 8.96
silver 10.49
lead 11.36
mercury 13.55
gold 19.32
Silver is not THAT much heavier than Copper. Aluminum has the weight game won; however how is the flexibility? At the risk of putting out fire with gasoline (Thanks to David Bowie) is there any data comparing copper to Aluminum in listening tests (Scientific or otherwise)?
So, that's it. Just thinking 'out loud' so to speak. In a tonearm application, there MIGHT be value in using Aluminum...
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"Weight is not such a good thing in a tonearm".
Not necessarily so.
Although not the same measurement, weight and mass are related. Many cartridges need a high mass tonearm to function at their full potential.
Ron
Not necessarily so.
Although not the same measurement, weight and mass are related. Many cartridges need a high mass tonearm to function at their full potential.
Ron
Gentlemen. It is good to see this thread steer back to reasonable, practical matters. This thread was at high risk of being closed."We learn from cable threads that we learn nothing from cable threads."
- George Bernard Shaw
Let's keep it on track.
Interestingly, anything not right near the headshell has a much more limited contribution to the effective mass.
Aluminum wouldn't be a good choice because of galvanic effects in contacts, as well as its significantly lower conductivity.
Aluminum wouldn't be a good choice because of galvanic effects in contacts, as well as its significantly lower conductivity.
Though KBK has a cable with some pretty horrible (liquid) metals conductivitywise. So bad in fact long cables need to be highly paralleled $$$$$$$.
Hi,
Sure, conductivity is but one of the factors.
Remember the carbon fibre cables from AJ van den Hul?
Or better still the mercury cables form I can't remember who that were once demoed at the Frankurter High-End show in the Burmester booth.
Too bad they were banned for environmental and health hazard reasons but they sure sounded promisingly.....liquid.😀
Using a metal in a liquid state should at least circumvent some of the possible problems such as lattice cavities and crystal boundaries.
I just looked at TEo Audio's website but they're not very revealing about the nature of the metal(s) they're using.🙁
Cheers, 😉
Sure, conductivity is but one of the factors.
Remember the carbon fibre cables from AJ van den Hul?
Or better still the mercury cables form I can't remember who that were once demoed at the Frankurter High-End show in the Burmester booth.
Too bad they were banned for environmental and health hazard reasons but they sure sounded promisingly.....liquid.😀
Using a metal in a liquid state should at least circumvent some of the possible problems such as lattice cavities and crystal boundaries.
I just looked at TEo Audio's website but they're not very revealing about the nature of the metal(s) they're using.🙁
Cheers, 😉
Fractured image
The mass of the wire is trivial compared to the arm, but the main reason for not using aluminium wire (just supposing you could find some of an appropriate thickness) is that it work hardens, so it would first increase the perceived friction, then fracture, reducing the perceived stereo image. Oh, and it has quite high resistance, which could be a problem for some moving coil cartridges.
The mass of the wire is trivial compared to the arm, but the main reason for not using aluminium wire (just supposing you could find some of an appropriate thickness) is that it work hardens, so it would first increase the perceived friction, then fracture, reducing the perceived stereo image. Oh, and it has quite high resistance, which could be a problem for some moving coil cartridges.
Good point.
The Keith Monks arm used mercury for part of the connection pathway. If memory serves, the reliability was typically British.
The Keith Monks arm used mercury for part of the connection pathway. If memory serves, the reliability was typically British.
You can start with Galinstan, there are different mixes with slightly different properties offered by several folks. I played with Wood's metal as a kid, cadmium yummy. At least two of the components are very expensive.
Hi,
Thank you Sir. 😎
I'll try to look into it asap.
In the mean time and more on topic, has anyone of you ever tried gold as a conductor for tonearm wire or MC cartridge coils for that matter?
Cheers, 😉
Thank you Sir. 😎
I'll try to look into it asap.
In the mean time and more on topic, has anyone of you ever tried gold as a conductor for tonearm wire or MC cartridge coils for that matter?
Cheers, 😉
I have access to spools of 1.5mil gold bond wire, but save trying to mesure its Peltier effect with other packageing metals I have not tried it. We had an ex employee that was selling our platinum thermocouple wires as scrap.
And anything with "MG" or "Jaguar" in the name. 🙂
Here is a link to a VERY long thread on DIY interconnects made with different materials from copper to gold. $$$
AudiogoN Forums: DIY Interconnects review
I wish I could afford it, just to say I've got it! 🙂
Ron
Yes, he was pocketing the proceeds. We actually use a lot of these since they are one of the few things to survive the high temps of the diffusion tubes.
Eh well, I guess I was always running a risk of starting yet another wire thread...
For what it's worth, I have decided to do the rewire with cardas stuff, for fun (I've always wanted to take my tone-arm apart) and to really see what (if any) difference it makes.
I'm a DJ and have two identical decks with same cartridges going into a mixer (in other words, identical phono and pre-amp section), so it will be mighty easy to do a proper A-B test and with a little help from my girlfriend a double-blind one too.
May take a while as I'm lazy too and I have enough on my plate as it is, but I will report results as soon as I have them.
Nikos
For what it's worth, I have decided to do the rewire with cardas stuff, for fun (I've always wanted to take my tone-arm apart) and to really see what (if any) difference it makes.
I'm a DJ and have two identical decks with same cartridges going into a mixer (in other words, identical phono and pre-amp section), so it will be mighty easy to do a proper A-B test and with a little help from my girlfriend a double-blind one too.
May take a while as I'm lazy too and I have enough on my plate as it is, but I will report results as soon as I have them.
Nikos
If you really want it to be 'double blind' you may consider swapping the cartridges as well at some point to see the influence of them on the tone you hear.
If the tone is VERY similar, I would not bother. If it is VERY different, I would do the swap.
Just a thought for ya!
If the tone is VERY similar, I would not bother. If it is VERY different, I would do the swap.
Just a thought for ya!
I once rewired the tonearm of my Thorens (TP90) which has a removable headshell, the construction should be similar to yours. There was a set of cables inside the headshell, wired to plugs on both ends, then the two piece connector of the headshell with a spring mechanism, a binding posts at the bottom of the tonearm inside the player where the tonearm cable ended, and a piece of 70's style black coax wire from the posts to the female chassis RCAs. I replaced the whole schmier with a single run of wires from the cartridge clips to the chassis RCAs thus replacing half a dozen contacts and different metals in the signal path. I believe this made a BIG improvement
If you do not insist on keeping the headshell hot swappable I strongly suggest to go for a single end-to-end connection. You can take this even one step further and run the wire through to the male RCAs connecting to the preamp. Costs more wire but saves you a set of RCA plugs. The tonearm wire is pretty delicate so you would need some extra insulation, look at various tonearms designs that do the same. If you have a low impedance MC cartridge you may get away without shielding. In that case you could use a star quad topology for each channel which should reduce noise pickup by some 20 db.
My 2 cents.
P.S. I used Van den Hul silver wire (MCS 150M) wired as star quad but this is expensive and you have to decide for yourself 😉
If you do not insist on keeping the headshell hot swappable I strongly suggest to go for a single end-to-end connection. You can take this even one step further and run the wire through to the male RCAs connecting to the preamp. Costs more wire but saves you a set of RCA plugs. The tonearm wire is pretty delicate so you would need some extra insulation, look at various tonearms designs that do the same. If you have a low impedance MC cartridge you may get away without shielding. In that case you could use a star quad topology for each channel which should reduce noise pickup by some 20 db.
My 2 cents.
P.S. I used Van den Hul silver wire (MCS 150M) wired as star quad but this is expensive and you have to decide for yourself 😉
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