Diffraction? Higher order modes?
Two frequently overlooked culprits that are easy to fix, but not without violating good appearance or patents, are:
diffractions: easily corrected using the "towel trick" and/or
lining the horn mouth with absorptive materials, or a foam plug a la the Geddes speakers.
While it goes against the spirit of DIY, many examples of ready-made speakers with horns are sold. Stated another way, even if you select the best components, your chances of error are high, compared to all but the most half-assed commercial designs. I've had a pair of Yorkville U15 (active EQ) with some of the above mods for the past five years. They are easily the best speakers, by far, that I've ever had, and I've had a few 🙂
Two frequently overlooked culprits that are easy to fix, but not without violating good appearance or patents, are:
diffractions: easily corrected using the "towel trick" and/or
lining the horn mouth with absorptive materials, or a foam plug a la the Geddes speakers.
While it goes against the spirit of DIY, many examples of ready-made speakers with horns are sold. Stated another way, even if you select the best components, your chances of error are high, compared to all but the most half-assed commercial designs. I've had a pair of Yorkville U15 (active EQ) with some of the above mods for the past five years. They are easily the best speakers, by far, that I've ever had, and I've had a few 🙂
Bodhisativa (n, Buddhism): a seeker after Enlightenment whose path is derailed by cannabis herb 🙂
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Gave me a good laugh this morning.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Gave me a good laugh this morning.
It does, but that does not mean it can't be fixed. It's like the "problem" of spark timing in a gasoline engine. It's well known and can be corrected for excellent performance.
The compression driver itself is flat - you are equalizing the horn and all horns are different.
The more efficiency you want to retain the less flat will be the response from the horn.
When blending a horn loaded CD to another speaker of any configuration look at the unsmoothed response and try to level each section's spikes.
We hear the spikes - not the manipulated smoothed response. Most people have their CD horn combos at much too high level. Hence the pain.
Using the Celestion Axi Periodic in Chris A's MEH design using the Klipsch K402 horn I am using a first order slope at 3500 Hz and few additional PEQs to get a reasonably flat response. I do not think one can enjoy CD horn sound without use of a good equalizer. I have found the xilica products to be amazingly good. For years i thought such things were heresy. Sure wasted lots of years of what could have been pleasurable listening.
Levels are matched by looking at unsmoothed response.
Before when I relied on 1/6 octave smoothing I would end up turning down the tweets while listening with this approach i am pretty close to hearing what I have measured and finding it good.
Sound is like a giant electrostatic that can image with dynamics I have never heard before. Drums now sound a little like drums where before you simply had to tell yourself that was a drum you just heard though it sounded more like hitting a sofa cushion with a bat.
Horns require lots of time and work. No other way around it.
The more efficiency you want to retain the less flat will be the response from the horn.
When blending a horn loaded CD to another speaker of any configuration look at the unsmoothed response and try to level each section's spikes.
We hear the spikes - not the manipulated smoothed response. Most people have their CD horn combos at much too high level. Hence the pain.
Using the Celestion Axi Periodic in Chris A's MEH design using the Klipsch K402 horn I am using a first order slope at 3500 Hz and few additional PEQs to get a reasonably flat response. I do not think one can enjoy CD horn sound without use of a good equalizer. I have found the xilica products to be amazingly good. For years i thought such things were heresy. Sure wasted lots of years of what could have been pleasurable listening.
Levels are matched by looking at unsmoothed response.
Before when I relied on 1/6 octave smoothing I would end up turning down the tweets while listening with this approach i am pretty close to hearing what I have measured and finding it good.
Sound is like a giant electrostatic that can image with dynamics I have never heard before. Drums now sound a little like drums where before you simply had to tell yourself that was a drum you just heard though it sounded more like hitting a sofa cushion with a bat.
Horns require lots of time and work. No other way around it.
I dunno.....sounds like a bunch of user error to me....
Are you guys having these conclusions after voicing? What type of voicing eq do you have?...Whats the resulting house curve?...Can we see some response measurements etc? The comments regarding dynamics could have something to do with levels or directivity but without the details its all random....
Are you guys having these conclusions after voicing? What type of voicing eq do you have?...Whats the resulting house curve?...Can we see some response measurements etc? The comments regarding dynamics could have something to do with levels or directivity but without the details its all random....
Not a bunch. There are some opinions expressed, along with questions and shared experience.
There are reasons why horns can sound shrill, so those who have tamed that problem are helping to explain why that can happen and how to fix it. It's useful information.
Ah, are those the Polish horns? I've yet to see or hear them in person. JMLC or Iwata?
EDIT: Iwata I see.
EDIT: Iwata I see.
I once owned a pair of Altec Valencias. In another forum 30 years ago, these guys used to say how they'd just laugh at how the horns sounded. I remember filling the outside with - probably copious amounts of silicon rubber - the reduce the "clang" of the metal horn when struck.
Getting such a solid image out of them, I wondered what the fuss was with these newfangled "center channel" speakers. The guys voice sounded like it was emanating off the front surface of the picture tube already - what more do you need?
When I got a wife...I got a SAF, which these "gigantic speakers" didnt meet. They became PA speakers used at the reception, stored out in the garage and I got a set of smaller KEF UniQs for the living room. Ultimately, we parted ways - both the wife and the Altecs.
I think their Xo for the horn was 800. It was the 811B horn, versus the larger one on the VOT. Crossover was just a capacitor and variable level control. I never messed with that part. There was something about that 800 Hz Xo that I liked the sound of.
I'll probably never know just what it was about their sound character those guys were laughing about.
Getting such a solid image out of them, I wondered what the fuss was with these newfangled "center channel" speakers. The guys voice sounded like it was emanating off the front surface of the picture tube already - what more do you need?
When I got a wife...I got a SAF, which these "gigantic speakers" didnt meet. They became PA speakers used at the reception, stored out in the garage and I got a set of smaller KEF UniQs for the living room. Ultimately, we parted ways - both the wife and the Altecs.
I think their Xo for the horn was 800. It was the 811B horn, versus the larger one on the VOT. Crossover was just a capacitor and variable level control. I never messed with that part. There was something about that 800 Hz Xo that I liked the sound of.
I'll probably never know just what it was about their sound character those guys were laughing about.
Yes, they are Iwata horns.
I'm using a 300B amplifier to drive the CDs, MC2205 for the mid/low end drivers.
I'm using a 300B amplifier to drive the CDs, MC2205 for the mid/low end drivers.
Affirmative.
JBL 4648A-8 (JBL 2226J drivers x 2)
Jbl 2446H Compression Drivers
dbx 234 Active Crossover
JBL 4648A-8 (JBL 2226J drivers x 2)
Jbl 2446H Compression Drivers
dbx 234 Active Crossover
One other point that has not been discussed is the absolute volume level of the speakers. The distortion does not rise as fast with most horn CD combinations as it does with direct radiators. It invites turning up the volume. You may not even be aware you are cranking it, because loud always sounds better if it is clean. Combine that with the inherent efficiency of a horn system it is very easy to over do it.
