Well, to make the test valid you would need testpersons that actually can hear the difference between amps...a bit contradicting, like it will be to choose test amps that actually sound different 😀 its like shooting your own foot 
aint that plain simple logic 🙂
aint that plain simple logic 🙂
SY said:
Whoever makes claims one way or another, the onus is on them to support the claim with credible evidence. So far, the only credible evidence is on the side of 'amps sounding the same.' Hopefully, people will put aside their emotional investments, and try and bridge the gap between the different sides. Who knows, people might actually enjoy learning and building!!!
SY said:
That being the case and the fact that we can all hear differences in speakers and that measurements unequivocally show speakers to be, by far, the weak link in the audio chain, it seems inescapable that one should first go for the best speaker one can build or buy and spend a relative pittance on the amp until such time as one has more dollars than sense. Then one could decide if the cost of marginal/imaginary improvement was more important than the good that money/time-effort could do as a donation to a worthy cause--like diyAudio.com 😉
cuibono said:
Nah, that is too simple. It is much more fun to point out that opposite camp has inferior sources, inferior preamplifiers, inferior speakers, inferior ears or are simply disinterested in music.
Bratislav said:
Well more often than not that seems to be the case. Don't ask me why so many fails to see and understand that though.
/Peter
eStatic said:
Why wait until "more dollars than sense"? A good amp can be had for a relatively sane price. Sure the speakers and room are the least perfect of the links in a playback chain but you can still hear artefacts in the electronics which often are of a more unpleasant and agressive type than speaker distortion.
Also, even though one could argue that the speaker degrades the signal the most, the signal normally pass thru many electronic transmission links on the way from mic capsule. All distortion and noise in mic pre, ADC, DAC, pre amp and power amp (leaving out EQ's, active filters and what not that also may be in the recording and playback chain) add up and if hi fidelity is the goal one should (IMO) aim for a performance from every link of the chain that is better than just passable when viewed in isolation. If the threshold of HF roll off is say 0.5dB at 20kHz then 0.05dB could be a reasonable goal for the transmission links for example.
Many are reasoning like "ah, the speakers and mic's are so imperfect so no need to obsess about electronics".
My take on that is the opposite. Since the electronic transmission links can be made transparent, then go for that and then forget about it and focus on the big prolems which obviously are the speakers and the room on the playback side.
/Peter
john please excuse me for targetting you here, but could you answer one question.
When you design an amplifier, do 'you' listen to them before deciding if the design is complete?
When you design an amplifier, do 'you' listen to them before deciding if the design is complete?
Perhaps your subjective impression of me has wavered? What about objectively?Pan said:
Still am. Objectively speaking 😀Pan said:
Censorship assures that. Sonic utopia is easier attained that way. 😉Pan said:
Yuri's (et al) life was in danger from the skeptics?john curl said:
Why is it non stressful to make a choice after long term, at home listening, than during a DBT? A choice/assessment still has to be made. So it can't be the choice causing the stress. Perhaps it is the removal of sight and prior knowledge of the DUT that induces the stress during a DBT? Since sight/knowledge of the DUT can so influence the sound?
cheers,
AJ
AJ, his professional life was certainly in danger. Much more attention was paid to him before the scam was exposed than after. Certainly Targ and Puthoff's reputations were never the same.
Too soon and you can't retire with the Big Bucks.
Too soon and you can't retire with the Big Bucks.
Pan said:
My poor ratty old ears have not found that to be the case for myself. Really good speakers and cheap amps allow me to attain my goal which is to loose myself in the experience of the music (not the experience of the audio). My cheap amps do not create such unpleasant and aggressive sounds that they intrude into my experience of the music or even into my awareness in any way. But that’s just my experience and I am by nature and training most focused on the issues of music not engineering.
eStatic said:
Well good for you. For me music and audioenginering are two paralell interests though. I play several instruments, write songs and record too. Music is most important but I find myself sitting there with goosbumps and a silly face more often when listening to music on a high resolution rig though.. so what can I do! 🙂
/Peter
john curl said:
What do you mean "our approach", white man? 😉
Out here in the jungle Kimosabe, it's every injun for hisself!!
Btw, I hear that in Sweden they are only permitted to use Abba recordings for testing equipment! Could this be why they thought that a Bryston amp (gack!) was the most transparent?? Inquiring minds want to know!
_-_-bear
Fwiw folks, I'm still waiting to hear two amplifiers that are not otherwise identical sound the same... on this point I am quite serious. I thought about it, and it has yet to happen here. Perhaps the key is to micromatch the levels... but will that change the timbre of everything and the relative perspective of the soundstage?? Nah...
(from at least 50 posts ago -- this thread is growing like crazy)
If you are limiting yourself to that then you are missing a large part of the spectrum of possibilities...
What about speakers that have the goal to produce acoustic waves that follow the amplifier's output current... or anywhere in between... a speaker and an amplifier are a system and considering them separately leaves out a big part of the equation.
dave
abzug said:
If you are limiting yourself to that then you are missing a large part of the spectrum of possibilities...
What about speakers that have the goal to produce acoustic waves that follow the amplifier's output current... or anywhere in between... a speaker and an amplifier are a system and considering them separately leaves out a big part of the equation.
dave
planet10 said:
But we still have to double it to beat them:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752&perpage=30&highlight=&pagenumber=1
OMG, I think my cables just started sounding different!!!
I put blackgate capacitors on my CDP, and, yup, it sounds better. The midrange really opened up, veils were lifted!! Must have damped unwanted resonances.
cuibono said:
Hey! I want all your unwanted resonances. I'm going to phase correlate them and sell them in genuine Borosilicate Acme Kline bottles for $2500 a pop. Just pour them on your amp and you will be amazed, or else!
janneman said:
I do know that my best 100 butterfly times were when i was not stressed, when i was they were dissapointing. Measured by a stopwatch.
dave
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